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PIE and the 24th Imperial Crusade Threaten The Disciples of Ston
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Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#21 - 2012-01-04 01:18:55 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:
Teraa Matar also recommend that PIE stop poking its fingers into places they simply dont belong.


Damnit Avlynka there's a joke here about having one's fingers in too many PIE's at once and I can't quite think of a suitable punchline.


Stop putting your fingers in my PIE?
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#22 - 2012-01-04 01:19:50 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:
Teraa Matar also recommend that PIE stop poking its fingers into places they simply dont belong.


Damnit Avlynka there's a joke here about having one's fingers in too many PIE's at once and I can't quite think of a suitable punchline.


I could think of a few, but they're probably not appropriate for the IGS. Blink

I might have expected this sort of diplomatic blunder from someone like Laerise or Veshta, but it is extremely disappointing to see this coming from Miss Goldcore.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#23 - 2012-01-04 01:31:13 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
I could think of a few, but they're probably not appropriate for the IGS. Blink

I might have expected this sort of diplomatic blunder from someone like Laerise or Veshta, but it is extremely disappointing to see this coming from Miss Goldcore.


The only diplomatic thing I've ever seen come out of PIE is in my corporation, now.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#24 - 2012-01-04 01:36:32 UTC
Aphoxema G wrote:
Morwen Lagann wrote:
I could think of a few, but they're probably not appropriate for the IGS. Blink

I might have expected this sort of diplomatic blunder from someone like Laerise or Veshta, but it is extremely disappointing to see this coming from Miss Goldcore.


The only diplomatic thing I've ever seen come out of PIE is in my corporation, now.


Indeed it is.

I do hope she's adjusting well to the radical change in work environment. It can be quite difficult, but if she's still anything like she was when we last spoke in person, I would have little reason to expect that she isn't.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#25 - 2012-01-04 01:39:15 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
I do hope she's adjusting well to the radical change in work environment. It can be quite difficult, but if she's still anything like she was when we last spoke in person, I would have little reason to expect that she isn't.


Maybe you should join us in our Kenkii sometime and see for yourself. I haven't had the pleasure to bring a guest, yet.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#26 - 2012-01-04 01:45:15 UTC
Welcome to the world of Capsuleers, where those with no legal power attempt to wield it anyways.

Katrina Oniseki
Karmilla Strife
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#27 - 2012-01-04 02:15:01 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
It'd be interesting to see if this is infact sanctioned by the command of PIE Inc. Personal opinion of Captain Goldcore is that ever since she joined the corp (right from her first day with her big announcement) she's been a doe-eyed fangirl of her superiors, and this may just be another attempt to win favour, and possibly done without their backing.


If it IS with their backing, I'm suprised they didn't get someone higher up food chain to do the work, someone who might not completely screw up at the first contact diplomacy.


It does seem a bit irregular. PIE is usually quite public about their activities and intentions.
Conventia Underking
Underking Family
Khimi Harar
#28 - 2012-01-04 03:43:36 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
I might have expected this sort of diplomatic blunder from someone like Laerise or Veshta, but it is extremely disappointing to see this coming from Miss Goldcore.


Honestly, Guardian Yoshida never really seemed like the sort to make diplomatic statements. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for Captain Fierach.

Aphoxema G wrote:
The only diplomatic thing I've ever seen come out of PIE is in my corporation, now.


Thank you!

Morwen Lagann wrote:
Indeed it is.

I do hope she's adjusting well to the radical change in work environment. It can be quite difficult, but if she's still anything like she was when we last spoke in person, I would have little reason to expect that she isn't.


Thank you, as well. I remember our last meeting being less than pleasant, but if you remember it otherwise, I suppose I can accept that. I do wish Miss Tyrathlion and yourself a pleasant and God fearing life.

Aphoxema G wrote:
Maybe you should join us in our Kenkii sometime and see for yourself. I haven't had the pleasure to bring a guest, yet.


I vaguely remember you having a guest, but like Commodore Goldcore, I believe that some things are best left private.

For God; Salvation is Imperative, but not at the cost of our Humanity!

The Vitoc Problem - Conventia Underking
Conventia Underking
Underking Family
Khimi Harar
#29 - 2012-01-04 03:51:12 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
All your questions will and should have been answered in private. Making this public now makes this a far more dangerous process and may lead to deaths that where entirely unnecessary.

You never had anything to fear if your claims of being non-violent or purely humanitarian organization where truthful... However I now have serious reason to believe that your organization isn't. Saving lives in space isn't illegal... supplying military groups under the veil of humanitarian work is.

Any further communications or negotiations will be conducted in private.


I understand the desire to have privacy and I also understand the desire to take action, given that you are one of the few members of PIE actually doing that. However, I think this event is unfortunate and it saddens me to see this turn out this way.

If you are in need of assistance in the future, do not hesitate to ask, Divine Commodore Goldcore.

Caellach Marellus wrote:
It'd be interesting to see if this is infact sanctioned by the command of PIE Inc. Personal opinion of Captain Goldcore is that ever since she joined the corp (right from her first day with her big announcement) she's been a doe-eyed fangirl of her superiors, and this may just be another attempt to win favour, and possibly done without their backing.


If it IS with their backing, I'm suprised they didn't get someone higher up food chain to do the work, someone who might not completely screw up at the first contact diplomacy.


While Divine Commodore Goldcore is fine with calling me a witch, I will suggest that she is not a fangirl of her superiors. Though, I too am concerned with how this will impact the reputation of PIE.

Ava Starfire wrote:
Teraa Matar of course will be more than happy to send a representative to accompany Commodore Goldcore on her investigation of your Matriculation Centers. We are honored to aid this enterprise any way we can.

Teraa Matar also recommend that PIE stop poking its fingers into places they simply dont belong. Of course, I want PIE to remain anonymous about this request, and not tell anyone.

Avlynka Surionen, Teraa Matar


I would be pleased to accompany Divine Commodore Goldcore on her trip as we are rather familiar with each other already and that may ease the process, Shaman Surionen.

For God; Salvation is Imperative, but not at the cost of our Humanity!

The Vitoc Problem - Conventia Underking
Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2012-01-04 05:50:46 UTC
This really should have been a simple matter. No threat of violence to their group if they where honest to their word. However, as I am sure all of you would agree in this universe, taking someone on their word alone is a good way to end up dead.

If this investigation where to turn up illegal support for military entities, then should it not be treated as such? The outrage I get as if what I am doing is somehow bullying or attacking a humanitarian group... This is not the case. With outspoken connections to groups violently opposing the Empire, there is plenty reason to investigate.

Assuming the deciples of ston are true to their word and are men of peace doing solely humanitarian work, then this investigation would be nothing more than a simple half hour or hour of their time. An Inconvience at worst. If they are a para-military group conducting illegal operations, as their non-compliance with the investigation suggests, then we can all agree their veil behind a screen of humanitarian work is a war crime that demands punishment.

To turn the tables, lets suppose a Amarrian group with significant ties to slaver ties set up a clinic for homeless people within the republic. Their books where entirely private as was their day to day operations. You only have their word that what they are doing is legitimate. Said plainly, if you where loyal to the republic what would you do? There's a good chance that shoot first ask questions later would be the order of the day. I am encountered with a similar situation and are deciding to ask questions first.

So, Deciples of Ston. I ask you... Do you have anything to hide?

Thgil Goldcore
Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

PS.

If my rank of divine commodore doesn't give me the right to conduct a minor investigation under the name of the 24th, then my golden badge is worth nothing.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#31 - 2012-01-04 06:39:27 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
[...] my golden badge is worth nothing.

Hey, you've finally caught on. Congratulations!

Those "golden badges" are handed out like pieces of candy by all of the militias' respective leadership to anyone who will play their game; your own Imperial Crusade has on many occasions given them to loyalists of the Blood Raider Covenant and Sansha's Nation - among numerous other enemies of the Empire - while completely ignoring where the true loyalties of the recipients lay.

It's a pity, but it is true: that badge on your uniform is worth nothing at all.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#32 - 2012-01-04 07:14:43 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
This really should have been a simple matter. No threat of violence to their group if they where honest to their word.


Okay, so are you claiming then that DoS started this and you politely offered to review their slave handling and then it is they who broke their promise? The only threats I see here... I mean, the only threats I see that are relevant to this discussion are the ones you made, unsolicited.
Uraniae Fehrnah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2012-01-04 08:32:23 UTC
The scope of duties, responsibilities and powers awarded to and expected of the Militias is, as far as I'm aware, restricted to ship to ship combat at least as far as capsuleers are concerned. So the very notion that PIE wishes to act as some sort of...customs and law enforcement organization is, in a word, laughable. Now, I certainly do objectively see the need for such things, but I have to assume they would technically fall under the jurisdiction of other Amarrian agencies, not the least of which would possibly include the MIO, Civic Court, or the Trade Registry.

Beyond the fact that PIE is demanding the inspection under the threat of possibly treating the Disciples as enemy combatants, the other concern is obviously the fair and objective inspection process. With that in mind I personally, would suggest allowing for a joint inspection with a third party there to remove any remote chance of even perceived unfair treatment.

Thgil Goldcore wrote:

If they are a para-military group conducting illegal operations, as their non-compliance with the investigation suggests, then we can all agree their veil behind a screen of humanitarian work is a war crime that demands punishment.


Now this little sentence is wonderfully ironic. It seems to set a rather convenient double standard in favor of the Empire. A great many actions undertaken by the Empire are, from some perspectives, exactly what are being described. Many people would agree that sweeping across regions of space taking slaves, eradicating resistance up to and including the elimination of entire cultures are war crimes veiled behind a screen of humanitarian efforts on behalf of the subjugated peoples.

All that said, Miss Goldcore is correct, now that this issue is in public view it has the potential to become rather complicated. The Disciples of Ston, by all appearances, are extremely averse to conflict but at the same time rather dedicated to their cause and ideals. I would not be surprised to see various other groups come forward to step in between PIE and the DoS if PIE does indeed take noncompliance as some sort of act of aggression or proof of wrongdoing.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#34 - 2012-01-04 09:11:29 UTC
Aphoxema G wrote:
It's simply delightful how this Thgil or anyone from PIE have come to view themselves to be some kind of authority in the fair treatment of slaves.
I think you misread Ms. Goldcore's mail. This is not about "fair treatment" of slaves. (Indeed, if PIE was to enforce good treatment of slaves, they'd violate direct statements from the Theological Council.)

This is purely about whether Empire resources are used against the Empire.

Though I'm not quite sure what they actually mean with that.


I'm also greatly amused by the implication that the Disciples didn't "comply" with the inspection, and have something to hide, considering they invited Ms. Goldcore to come visit the facilities, despite Ms. Goldcore's rather rude manners and the bad way she started this whole affair.
Conventia Underking
Underking Family
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2012-01-04 09:13:08 UTC
I do find it curious that none of the Admirals have decided to say anything, especially Admiral Blake, given his fondness of the IGS in general and even more so considering he is viewed as the "diplomatic" one.

For God; Salvation is Imperative, but not at the cost of our Humanity!

The Vitoc Problem - Conventia Underking
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#36 - 2012-01-04 09:15:13 UTC
Conventia Underking wrote:
I do find it curious that none of the Admirals have decided to say anything, especially Admiral Blake, given his fondness of the IGS in general and even more so considering he is viewed as the "diplomatic" one.


Captain Goldcore's last post gives me the distinct impression that she's struck out on her own with this one. I'm not sure they'll take kindly to PIE's name being thrown in.

Of course as you know such matters wouldn't be dealt with publicly, more behind closed doors.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#37 - 2012-01-04 09:20:20 UTC
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
The Disciples of Ston, by all appearances, are extremely averse to conflict but at the same time rather dedicated to their cause and ideals. I would not be surprised to see various other groups come forward to step in between PIE and the DoS if PIE does indeed take noncompliance as some sort of act of aggression or proof of wrongdoing.

I think you could safely wager a large amount of ISK on that, Uraniae.

I suspect there are more of those groups than PIE would expect there to be. Though, as Conventia just pointed out, given the lack of response by the Admiralty Board - or, for that matter, any other members of PIE - perhaps it would be more accurate to suggest that it is Miss Goldcore alone who is underestimating the size of the potential response to such an act, and that her superiors are simply letting her supply her own noose to hang herself with.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Conventia Underking
Underking Family
Khimi Harar
#38 - 2012-01-04 09:29:11 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Captain Goldcore's last post gives me the distinct impression that she's struck out on her own with this one. I'm not sure they'll take kindly to PIE's name being thrown in.

Of course as you know such matters wouldn't be dealt with publicly, more behind closed doors.


Yes, though, that would be the Amarrian way. Even as a member of PIE, I wasn't privy to the decisions of leadership, other than experiencing any obvious and direct consequences. I would expect nothing less.

Morwen Lagann wrote:
I think you could safely wager a large amount of ISK on that, Uraniae.

I suspect there are more of those groups than PIE would expect there to be. Though, as Conventia just pointed out, given the lack of response by the Admiralty Board - or, for that matter, any other members of PIE - perhaps it would be more accurate to suggest that it is Miss Goldcore alone who is underestimating the size of the potential response to such an act, and that her superiors are simply letting her supply her own noose to hang herself with.


I would consider that to be very unfortunate as I am quite fond of Divine Commodore Goldcore, with her quirky ways.

For God; Salvation is Imperative, but not at the cost of our Humanity!

The Vitoc Problem - Conventia Underking
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#39 - 2012-01-04 11:10:26 UTC
The Disciples of Ston have some serious questions to answer.

If they have done nothing wrong, then they have nothing to fear from those questions.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#40 - 2012-01-04 11:34:50 UTC
Karmilla Strife wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
It'd be interesting to see if this is infact sanctioned by the command of PIE Inc. Personal opinion of Captain Goldcore is that ever since she joined the corp (right from her first day with her big announcement) she's been a doe-eyed fangirl of her superiors, and this may just be another attempt to win favour, and possibly done without their backing.


If it IS with their backing, I'm suprised they didn't get someone higher up food chain to do the work, someone who might not completely screw up at the first contact diplomacy.


It does seem a bit irregular. PIE is usually quite public about their activities and intentions.


On the contrary, most of our diplomatic activities take place behind closed doors.

In my opinion asking questions regarding alleged wrongdoing in private is often appropriate because it avoids embarrassment for the accused if they turn out to be innocent.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori