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Question for the Devs: Drifter incursion support modules on NPCs?
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-08-27 14:30:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Edit: Question summary is not whether it is effective tactic. It is simply do the mechanics allow electronic support modules used on npc amarr navy so that they have more tracking, etc.

In terms of roleplay, this is the equal of asking the NPCs. While we can test using remote reps on the Amarr, (concept brought up by another person in another thread) I was wondering about stuff like remote tracking links, cap transfers, all that stuff.

Essentially this is stuff that will be extremely difficult to know if it is having an actual game mechanics effect. Unlike Ewar which we would never know since it is the enemy, we can ask our allies.

Is there any feedback available on the secondary forms of support? Are the Amarr Navy NPCs affected in any way by remote support links or capacitor with the new AI? Will remote Sebu, remote tracking link help with their range/lock times?

In addition, I assume the answer is yes, but if Drifters are vulnerable to certain ewar/painters/etc. To use the painter as an example, with the amarr navy be benefiting from the increased sig as well?

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2015-08-27 18:11:50 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
In terms of roleplay, this is the equal of asking the NPCs. While we can test using remote reps on the Amarr, (concept brought up by another person in another thread) I was wondering about stuff like remote tracking links, cap transfers, all that stuff.

Essentially this is stuff that will be extremely difficult to know if it is having an actual game mechanics effect. Unlike Ewar which we would never know since it is the enemy, we can ask our allies.

Is there any feedback available on the secondary forms of support? Are the Amarr Navy NPCs affected in any way by remote support links or capacitor with the new AI? Will remote Sebu, remote tracking link help with their range/lock times?

In addition, I assume the answer is yes, but if Drifters are vulnerable to certain ewar/painters/etc. To use the painter as an example, with the amarr navy be benefiting from the increased sig as well?


Question seconded. Any info on this that can be released or confirmed/denied would be great.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-08-27 18:15:00 UTC
Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
In terms of roleplay, this is the equal of asking the NPCs. While we can test using remote reps on the Amarr, (concept brought up by another person in another thread) I was wondering about stuff like remote tracking links, cap transfers, all that stuff.

Essentially this is stuff that will be extremely difficult to know if it is having an actual game mechanics effect. Unlike Ewar which we would never know since it is the enemy, we can ask our allies.

Is there any feedback available on the secondary forms of support? Are the Amarr Navy NPCs affected in any way by remote support links or capacitor with the new AI? Will remote Sebu, remote tracking link help with their range/lock times?

In addition, I assume the answer is yes, but if Drifters are vulnerable to certain ewar/painters/etc. To use the painter as an example, with the amarr navy be benefiting from the increased sig as well?


Question seconded. Any info on this that can be released or confirmed/denied would be great.

Usually this kind of game mechanics are kept secret and muse be found through trial and error.

Try testing on SISI if you don't want to risk TQ assets.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-08-27 18:23:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Omnathious Deninard wrote:


Question seconded. Any info on this that can be released or confirmed/denied would be great.

Usually this kind of game mechanics are kept secret and muse be found through trial and error.

Try testing on SISI if you don't want to risk TQ assets.[/quote]

That was why I was posting here. How can we tell if giving an AI a Sebu is working for lock time or a tracking link is upping damage? I guess we could timer and do lots of timing. We can get a result I suppose, just doing it over and over again and see if it creates a result. I just kinda see it like a roleplayer where I would just ask said npc friend if I am helping. I am cool either way, but it would be a lot of time wasted on something not working because not in game engine? The assets part is no biggie. I would get a bunch of us in support friggies. Logi is easy enough to test. The e support on it's own I cannot see it being a tide turner, but the idea was if it does, it adds secondary roles we can add to our combat ships. Maybe difference between victory or defeat? Maybe it does help and just harder to tell?

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
bardghost Isu
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2015-08-27 19:16:02 UTC  |  Edited by: bardghost Isu
Markus Reese wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:


Question seconded. Any info on this that can be released or confirmed/denied would be great.

Usually this kind of game mechanics are kept secret and muse be found through trial and error.

Try testing on SISI if you don't want to risk TQ assets.


That was why I was posting here. How can we tell if giving an AI a Sebu is working for lock time or a tracking link is upping damage? I guess we could timer and do lots of timing. We can get a result I suppose, just doing it over and over again and see if it creates a result. I just kinda see it like a roleplayer where I would just ask said npc friend if I am helping. I am cool either way, but it would be a lot of time wasted on something not working because not in game engine? The assets part is no biggie. I would get a bunch of us in support friggies. Logi is easy enough to test. The e support on it's own I cannot see it being a tide turner, but the idea was if it does, it adds secondary roles we can add to our combat ships. Maybe difference between victory or defeat? Maybe it does help and just harder to tell?[/quote]

The question was already raised in the lore panel and the CCP response was essentially, "find it out yourselves" The best people to ask if this would have any effect are the people who search the database, they may have spotted something that could clue us in.. But as stated it would be best to test on SiSi, as all items cost 100 isk there.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2015-08-27 19:34:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
I must have missed it being asked in lore panel. Do you remember which one it was? If so, I will share it in opening post if we can find that spot.

The isk side is no big deal for this part. I prefer to avoid tactics on sisi. Is like passing a game with god mode on. Yeah, still was work but when you play for real, the tension and challenge is kinda lost. If we get an "I dunno", I am cool with it. As far as I am concerned, support works. Only reason it wont is because of mechanics limitations which is a bit different than leet npcs. It is like ewar in missions. Dont work just cus. That isnt fun, That is disappointment. Is same with support. If it doesnt work, that is just a missed opportunity and disappointment after spending a whole bunch of time since only reason it wouldnt is the mechanics.

EDIT: It isnt asking whether it will be an effective tactic. Simply whether or not the mechanics support electronics support.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Ferrucio Surge
The Bag Cartel
#7 - 2015-09-10 23:48:12 UTC
I would, also, like to know if Ewar and Logi are going to be any helpful in Drifter Incursions, since it seems we're going to need all the help we can get.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#8 - 2015-09-11 00:26:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
bardghost Isu wrote:

The question was already raised in the lore panel and the CCP response was essentially, "find it out yourselves" The best people to ask if this would have any effect are the people who search the database, they may have spotted something that could clue us in.. But as stated it would be best to test on SiSi, as all items cost 100 isk there.

Which is a TERRIBLE response by CCP.
Knowing is basic application of a module actually works on an NPC should not be a matter of trial and error.

Of course with their NPC code and how their NPC's cheat in a massive number of ways, it's a 'who knows' matter. But they shouldn't be deliberately leaving us in the dark.

The 'find out yourselves' should be to do with what the most effective application is. Not if it works at all.
Ferrucio Surge
The Bag Cartel
#9 - 2015-09-11 01:30:41 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Which is a TERRIBLE response by CCP.
Knowing is basic application of a module actually works on an NPC should not be a matter of trial and error.

Of course with their NPC code and how their NPC's cheat in a massive number of ways, it's a 'who knows' matter. But they shouldn't be deliberately leaving us in the dark.

The 'find out yourselves' should be to do with what the most effective application is. Not if it works at all.


Considering how horrifyingly destructive the Drifters are supposedly going to be, we have to explore every avenue, every possibly effective method.

We also have to ask the people bothering to test the incursions in SiSi, because they know a lot more about the possible tactics necessary to actually succeed in fighting them.

I've been looking for resources about this information, but so far there has been very little new information to work with, and either the testers are being awfully silent about it OR I'm just not looking in the right places.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#10 - 2015-09-11 01:49:22 UTC
Ferrucio Surge wrote:


Considering how horrifyingly destructive the Drifters are supposedly going to be, we have to explore every avenue, every possibly effective method.

We also have to ask the people bothering to test the incursions in SiSi, because they know a lot more about the possible tactics necessary to actually succeed in fighting them.

I've been looking for resources about this information, but so far there has been very little new information to work with, and either the testers are being awfully silent about it OR I'm just not looking in the right places.

None of which is remotely relevant to the Devs giving an answer on a basic game mechanic.
Ferrucio Surge
The Bag Cartel
#11 - 2015-09-11 02:34:49 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ferrucio Surge wrote:


Considering how horrifyingly destructive the Drifters are supposedly going to be, we have to explore every avenue, every possibly effective method.

We also have to ask the people bothering to test the incursions in SiSi, because they know a lot more about the possible tactics necessary to actually succeed in fighting them.

I've been looking for resources about this information, but so far there has been very little new information to work with, and either the testers are being awfully silent about it OR I'm just not looking in the right places.

None of which is remotely relevant to the Devs giving an answer on a basic game mechanic.


If they're adamant about not telling us what works and what doesn't, it's up to the player base to find that information.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#12 - 2015-09-11 03:29:35 UTC
Ferrucio Surge wrote:

If they're adamant about not telling us what works and what doesn't, it's up to the player base to find that information.

Which still doesn't make it remotely acceptable for them to not tell us basic mechanics.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2015-09-11 04:23:30 UTC
Ferrucio Surge wrote:


If they're adamant about not telling us what works and what doesn't, it's up to the player base to find that information.


Which is why I am wondering if they are adamant? I would be happy with any comment, even if it's them telling us no comment. I fully expect there to be zero for drifters. The specific origins of this thread is directly related to the amarr navy. Ewar is easy to test. But how can we tell if a remote tracking link helps an ally? That is very difficult to quantify for something that if it was a player ally, we could ask. The only way would be to overwhelmingly time and time again, do extensive comparisions of how the combat works.

In the case of pve, using said tactics on the enemy is more noticable since you have actual feedback you can compare to. In the case of electronic support of an NPC, there is nothing. It would just be extremely tedious to find out "oh, our mechanics are not supporting tracking enhancers on the NPCs?"

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Lerner
#14 - 2015-09-11 04:36:27 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ferrucio Surge wrote:

If they're adamant about not telling us what works and what doesn't, it's up to the player base to find that information.

Which still doesn't make it remotely acceptable for them to not tell us basic mechanics.



I agree for a few reasons.

1. Defense of the throne worlds/Help the Amarr Empire. This right here opens up the DEV to the responsibility to tell us if this tactic helps or not. If they want us to get into this ,then I consider this information as a need to know basis. Not some cheap slap in the face answer of find out for your self.

2. Players are going to lose ships regardless of the size of the fleets or what ships are flown. We had ECM as a example and the DEV team took that away. Every time player adapted to avoid losing a ship they simply changed some numbers. The role players see this as drifters adapting to our tactics fine be that as it may. However give players the options to find out through that role as to what works and what don't. Not trial and error through isk disappearing from our wallets cause they simply wont answer a basic game mechanic question.

3. We pay their RL salaries. Yup its as simple as that. We are not asking for some super secret way to kill or cheat. We simply have no way to send the Amar navy a message and ask....... " Hey I'm trying to rep your Armor and aid you in your fight is it having any effect?" Nope no option. Its hey find out for your self and if you lose a few extra ships on top of the ones you are going to already lose regardless of whatever you players bring no big deal.

Nah this garbage wont fly with me. Yes or no ? or you The DEV wont see me any where near a drifter incursion much less buy into role playing if you the DEV wont give us the tools or the info we need to role play. Because I can also answer back with My RL wallet.
Ferrucio Surge
The Bag Cartel
#15 - 2015-09-11 05:33:04 UTC
Lerner wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ferrucio Surge wrote:

If they're adamant about not telling us what works and what doesn't, it's up to the player base to find that information.

Which still doesn't make it remotely acceptable for them to not tell us basic mechanics.



I agree for a few reasons.

1. Defense of the throne worlds/Help the Amarr Empire. This right here opens up the DEV to the responsibility to tell us if this tactic helps or not. If they want us to get into this ,then I consider this information as a need to know basis. Not some cheap slap in the face answer of find out for your self.

2. Players are going to lose ships regardless of the size of the fleets or what ships are flown. We had ECM as a example and the DEV team took that away. Every time player adapted to avoid losing a ship they simply changed some numbers. The role players see this as drifters adapting to our tactics fine be that as it may. However give players the options to find out through that role as to what works and what don't. Not trial and error through isk disappearing from our wallets cause they simply wont answer a basic game mechanic question.

3. We pay their RL salaries. Yup its as simple as that. We are not asking for some super secret way to kill or cheat. We simply have no way to send the Amar navy a message and ask....... " Hey I'm trying to rep your Armor and aid you in your fight is it having any effect?" Nope no option. Its hey find out for your self and if you lose a few extra ships on top of the ones you are going to already lose regardless of whatever you players bring no big deal.

Nah this garbage wont fly with me. Yes or no ? or you The DEV wont see me any where near a drifter incursion much less buy into role playing if you the DEV wont give us the tools or the info we need to role play. Because I can also answer back with My RL wallet.
I'd say that's a fair point. But what do you mean about ECM? Is there more information about this somewhere! Is ECM completely ineffective? And what does this mean for Ewar in general?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#16 - 2015-09-11 05:49:48 UTC
Ferrucio Surge wrote:
I'd say that's a fair point. But what do you mean about ECM? Is there more information about this somewhere! Is ECM completely ineffective? And what does this mean for Ewar in general?

ECM used to break the AI script. Rather than fix the AI script they gave drifters 500 sensor strength.
Damps are also useless due to their insane targeting range.
Neuts don't work on NPC's properly.
Tracking Disruptor's 'might' have some effect on NPC's.

But basically NPC's are generally immune to most Ewar because of legacy code issues.

However we are asking about buffs on friendly NPC's, which I suspect come under the same legacy code issues.
Where NPC's don't actually do things like we do, but simply have faked timers and the like.
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2015-09-11 06:39:30 UTC
Drifters need rep love too!

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Ferrucio Surge
The Bag Cartel
#18 - 2015-09-11 06:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Ferrucio Surge
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ferrucio Surge wrote:
I'd say that's a fair point. But what do you mean about ECM? Is there more information about this somewhere! Is ECM completely ineffective? And what does this mean for Ewar in general?

ECM used to break the AI script. Rather than fix the AI script they gave drifters 500 sensor strength.
Damps are also useless due to their insane targeting range.
Neuts don't work on NPC's properly.
Tracking Disruptor's 'might' have some effect on NPC's.

But basically NPC's are generally immune to most Ewar because of legacy code issues.

However we are asking about buffs on friendly NPC's, which I suspect come under the same legacy code issues.
Where NPC's don't actually do things like we do, but simply have faked timers and the like.


So because the code is old and incompatible, they'd rather work around it and make it harder than it needs to be for players? I'm not gonna presume to know how difficult working with code is, but...
Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#19 - 2015-09-11 09:50:54 UTC
Did you try boosting tracking of NPC's while you're being shot by NPC's? Did the damage increase? Why is CCP needed here?
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#20 - 2015-09-11 11:25:58 UTC
IIRC it's a Crimewatch red card to provide remote assistance to NPCs that are hostile to all players.

Not relevant in null and only a nuisance in low, but something to keep in mind.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
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