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Elmund Egivand - A Furtherin', Iffin Ye Will
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Praezius Vheruk
Gozantii Industries
#1 - 2015-09-10 05:04:01 UTC
Nao', ye dae nae knae me, sae 'llow me tae ma'e mese'f knaen tae ye. Praezius Vheruk, CEO o'Gozantii Industries, at'n yer serv'ce.

'Kay, sae ye'd ma'e a ma' t'in' 'baou' yer wor's, an't a ma' wot dae mech t'in'in 'n a day; may I's ast ye tae further s'plain yer meanin's o'a phrase ye le't a t'read wi' earlier, 'dis nigh'?

"Elmund Egivan" wrote:
We aren't immortal. We are the undead.


Nao', bae me aen b'liefs, ye bae sae'n we's folk tae burst tae flame w'en 'de sun 'its us, 'dat we bae feeders offen aor bruddas n'sistas... bu', bu' nae, 'dat daen fit, nedder. Iffin we's 'de un-deat', 'den we's nae 'ble tae feed aor'se'fs, 's aor bretteren folk're 'de sa'e 's we.

Woul' ye bae sae kin't 's tae s'plain yer ideals?

Sinc'rely,

Praezius Vheruk

To discern faith from falsehood, first one must secure themselves to a lover. Raise the stakes from nightly, to permanent, and faith shall be found at the threshold of one's soul. ( Cup Size < Compassion's Depth, Love = Faith )
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#2 - 2015-09-10 05:56:42 UTC
Eh. He's saying that the many deaths of our clones are "real deaths"-- that we just come back as ghosts of ourselves.

It's a longstanding answer to the idea we're immortal, and maybe it's okay for that purpose, but ...

... if that's true, I don't remember at all what it was like to be properly alive. It doesn't seem likely that it felt very different. If it did, would we even be debating this?

Really, I think both the idea that we're immortal and the idea that we are reflections of dead people are destructive. Both seem to want to make us into something supernatural, but there's nothing supernatural about it. People have been messing around with the usual patterns of life for as long as we've had domesticated animals-- back into the misty reaches of the Ancients' history, probably.

Growing a cow to fill my stomach; growing a dog to guard my house; growing a clone to contain my transferred mind. Is there really such a clear difference?

We're not immortal, but we're alive now. We're living, breathing creatures.

Isn't that enough?
Kairelle
Raven.Syndicate
#3 - 2015-09-10 06:29:50 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

Isn't that enough?


Clearly not for some.

I don't think it really matters what we are.
We just...are.

We may live and breath, but we aren't really alive.
Strip everything away and we're just data.

Sure we're data in control of a very realistic looking meat puppet, but we're still just data.
It's easier to act like we're human so we do, but I don't think we really are.
Granted none of this really matters anyway....so why really worry?

Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu.
Hibou Heluene
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2015-09-10 06:46:37 UTC
More than data. What is will if not the essence of being? There is no formula to quantify it.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
Eh. He's saying that the many deaths of our clones are "real deaths"-- that we just come back as ghosts of ourselves.

Vremaja Idama has taught that the 'ghost' is the 'self' inasmuch. I do not feel that the end of these disposable bodies constitutes death, as there is no Rebirth. We simply continue as this expression of the self. Therefore, there remains a lesson we have yet to learn in this life. Would we be so lucky to do so, though I myself cling to doubt.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2015-09-10 08:52:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
An immortal is immune to death. He has no way of ever experiencing death. His body is eternal. His soul is eternal. His will is eternal. Nothing you do is capable of ever killing him. His immortality relies on no outside factors and nobody's whim, except, the whims of a divine, if any exists.

An undead however, isn't immune to death. He can experience death, so much so he can become intimate to it. His body is temporary, and he is prone of losing it. His 'soul' is data, vulnerable to corruption. He can, in fact, be killed permanently. A corrupted infomorph data, his clones being stored in a doomed station, his clone contract revoked, faulty implants, running out of biomass or synthetic materials to transfer infomorph data into, all these will bestow to him permanent death. Moreover, he relies on clone technicians, clone contracts and etc for his ability to return from the dead.

That is, in my opinion, the difference between a true immortal and an undead.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#6 - 2015-09-10 14:46:38 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
An immortal is immune to death. He has no way of ever experiencing death. His body is eternal. His soul is eternal. His will is eternal. Nothing you do is capable of ever killing him. His immortality relies on no outside factors and nobody's whim, except, the whims of a divine, if any exists.

An undead however, isn't immune to death. He can experience death, so much so he can become intimate to it. His body is temporary, and he is prone of losing it. His 'soul' is data, vulnerable to corruption. He can, in fact, be killed permanently. A corrupted infomorph data, his clones being stored in a doomed station, his clone contract revoked, faulty implants, running out of biomass or synthetic materials to transfer infomorph data into, all these will bestow to him permanent death. Moreover, he relies on clone technicians, clone contracts and etc for his ability to return from the dead.

That is, in my opinion, the difference between a true immortal and an undead.

Uh ... respectfully, Mr. Egivand, it sounds like you're defining "undead" to perfectly match us. As opposed to, you know, about a bajillion mythical, supernatural creatures.

Those kinds of metaphors are useful in some places, but they're also dangerous. My predecessor thought very similarly to you. She concluded that she wasn't human, and that human rules didn't apply to her. She took to being a monster with a kind of grim pride, and others followed her example.

I've got a lot of damage to try to fix.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-09-10 14:55:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
An immortal is immune to death. He has no way of ever experiencing death. His body is eternal. His soul is eternal. His will is eternal. Nothing you do is capable of ever killing him. His immortality relies on no outside factors and nobody's whim, except, the whims of a divine, if any exists.

An undead however, isn't immune to death. He can experience death, so much so he can become intimate to it. His body is temporary, and he is prone of losing it. His 'soul' is data, vulnerable to corruption. He can, in fact, be killed permanently. A corrupted infomorph data, his clones being stored in a doomed station, his clone contract revoked, faulty implants, running out of biomass or synthetic materials to transfer infomorph data into, all these will bestow to him permanent death. Moreover, he relies on clone technicians, clone contracts and etc for his ability to return from the dead.

That is, in my opinion, the difference between a true immortal and an undead.

Uh ... respectfully, Mr. Egivand, it sounds like you're defining "undead" to perfectly match us. As opposed to, you know, about a bajillion mythical, supernatural creatures.

Those kinds of metaphors are useful in some places, but they're also dangerous. My predecessor thought very similarly to you. She concluded that she wasn't human, and that human rules didn't apply to her. She took to being a monster with a kind of grim pride, and others followed her example.

I've got a lot of damage to try to fix.


Though you must admit that we are very much like a draugr. We die, then we come back, perhaps to torment the still-living, perhaps to pursue a vendetta, perhaps to continue our strives and ambitions, so rudely prematurely interrupted by the destruction of our flesh vessels. Then we die, only to return once more, and perpetuate the cycle.

And like a draugr, we can be put down permanently in a variety of ways, though none of them easy.

Only difference is that we aren't walking corpses.

It's a thought that amuses me even now.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2015-09-10 15:03:55 UTC
I should perhaps define 'undead' more clearly.

What do all undead have in common?

They have all died at some point. They can all die again. Yet they return to the land of the living, for something has kept them tethered here.

With some effort, they can be put to permanent rest.

Does this not describe us, we who have died, but returned to the land of the living, tethered by the means of technology?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#9 - 2015-09-10 15:15:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Though you must admit that we are very much like a draugr. We die, then we come back, perhaps to torment the still-living, perhaps to pursue a vendetta, perhaps to continue our strives and ambitions, so rudely prematurely interrupted by the destruction of our flesh vessels. And like them, we can be put down permanently in a variety of ways, though none of them easy.

Only difference is that we aren't walking corpses.


I'm not very familiar with the creature you describe.

(Bit o' research later.)

Respectfully, Mr. Egivand, I don't remember invading anybody's dreams, driving livestock mad, or tormenting shepherds.

I do see the parallel you're trying to draw, but ... please don't?

The problem isn't just being wrong (and you're reaching, respectfully). It's that some of us-- a lot more than it maybe looks like-- live in a moral universe where a slaver dog doesn't eat you because it's evil; it eats you because it's a slaver dog. Even if some duties are inherent to being human-- compassion, for example-- the slaver dog doesn't share those. It's the same for a monster, or, in some ways of thinking, even a demon.

Take a metaphor far enough, and people will use it as a source of moral purpose.

If I'm a draugr, I should really get on that "invading dreams" thing. I might be able to accomplish it with some modified implants. Maybe TCMC's, planted on my victims? Those would help a lot with driving animals mad, too. Getting birds flying over my grave to drop dead shouldn't be too difficult. Maybe a microwave system?

You see how this works?
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2015-09-10 15:23:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Though you must admit that we are very much like a draugr. We die, then we come back, perhaps to torment the still-living, perhaps to pursue a vendetta, perhaps to continue our strives and ambitions, so rudely prematurely interrupted by the destruction of our flesh vessels. And like them, we can be put down permanently in a variety of ways, though none of them easy.

Only difference is that we aren't walking corpses.


I'm not very familiar with the creature you describe.

(Bit o' research later.)

Respectfully, Mr. Egivand, I don't remember invading anybody's dreams, driving livestock mad, or tormenting shepherds.

I do see the parallel you're trying to draw, but ... please don't?

The problem isn't just being wrong (and you're reaching, respectfully). It's that some of us-- a lot more than it maybe looks like-- live in a moral universe where a slaver dog doesn't eat you because it's evil; it eats you because it's a slaver dog. Even if some duties are inherent to being human-- compassion, for example-- the slaver dog doesn't share those. It's the same for a monster, or, in some ways of thinking, even a demon.

Take a metaphor far enough, and people will use it as a source of moral purpose.

If I'm a draugr, I should really get on that "invading dreams" thing. I might be able to accomplish it with some modified implants. Maybe TCMC's, planted on my victims? Those would help a lot with driving animals mad, too. Getting birds flying over my grave to drop dead shouldn't be too difficult. Maybe a microwave system?

You see how this works?


That's but one version of the draurgr.

Also, you can always opt to be a benevolent undead. No reason why a draugr can't be an agent of benevolence. You can always leave gifts for the dreamers if it pleases you.

Or you could just drink all the draught during Winter Solstice festivals.

The thing about being undead is, well, we have second chances. Or third chances. Our brand of undead is notoriously hard to put down so we will have many many chances. We will all perish for good one day, so make these chances count for something?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-09-10 15:24:01 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
..., driving livestock mad, or tormenting shepherds.


Leave that to the Angel Cartel's escape attempts...imagine how scared the shepherd was when one of his goats turned around and muttered 'Don't even think about it...'
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#12 - 2015-09-10 15:46:58 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
That's but one version of the draurgr.

Also, you can always opt to be a benevolent undead. No reason why a draugr can't be an agent of benevolence. You can always leave gifts for the dreamers if it pleases you.

Or you could just drink all the draught during Winter Solstice festivals.

The thing about being undead is, well, we have second chances. Or third chances. Our brand of undead is notoriously hard to put down so we will have many many chances. We will all perish for good one day, so make these chances count for something?


My predecessor's model for herself, also, has a chance to become "good." Or human, anyway.

Her version was the kumiho, a shapechanging animal that can turn itself into a little girl or a young woman. Her preferred diet is human organs (exactly which organs varies, but usually hearts or livers). She uses her shapeshifting trick to infiltrate families, then murders them in the middle of the night.

My predecessor had a rough relationship with her family.

A kumiho can become human in ... well, various ways, depending on the story. Most of them are a horrible pain in the neck. Abstain from killing or tasting meat for a thousand days; conversely, eat one human liver per year for a thousand years....

Easier just to stay a monster, really.

Only, I don't think I am a monster, or an "undead," or anything else mythical. If I really need to identify as something specific, I'm just a person.

I'm just me.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2015-09-10 15:52:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
That's but one version of the draurgr.

Also, you can always opt to be a benevolent undead. No reason why a draugr can't be an agent of benevolence. You can always leave gifts for the dreamers if it pleases you.

Or you could just drink all the draught during Winter Solstice festivals.

The thing about being undead is, well, we have second chances. Or third chances. Our brand of undead is notoriously hard to put down so we will have many many chances. We will all perish for good one day, so make these chances count for something?


My predecessor's model for herself, also, has a chance to become "good." Or human, anyway.

Her version was the kumiho, a shapechanging animal that can turn itself into a little girl or a young woman. Her preferred diet is human organs (exactly which organs varies, but usually hearts or livers). She uses her shapeshifting trick to infiltrate families, then murders them in the middle of the night.

My predecessor had a rough relationship with her family.

A kumiho can become human in ... well, various ways, depending on the story. Most of them are a horrible pain in the neck. Abstain from killing or tasting meat for a thousand days; conversely, eat one human liver per year for a thousand years....

Easier just to stay a monster, really.

Only, I don't think I am a monster, or an "undead," or anything else mythical. If I really need to identify as something specific, I'm just a person.

I'm just me.


Personally, I don't quite care. Just random musings under the star.

Besides, I am but undead, a certain specific type that may or may not be damaged a bit every time I die and wake up in a new body and has long stretches of free time doing absolutely nothing but drifting about in the void thinking things to amuse myself.

I just felt the need to remind myself, continuously, that my 'immortality' is but a sham, so that I don't go pushing my luck too far. Otherwise, I might really **** somebody with way too much power enough that he might devote his time and resources to hunt down all my clones and bribe all the important people to terminate my contract and put all of this 'immortal' fantasy to an end.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#14 - 2015-09-10 16:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Personally, I don't quite care. Just random musings under the star.

Besides, I am but undead, a certain specific type that may or may not be damaged a bit every time I die and wake up in a new body and has long stretches of free time doing absolutely nothing but drifting about in the void thinking things to amuse myself.

I just felt the need to remind myself, continuously, that my 'immortality' is but a sham, so that I don't go pushing my luck too far. Otherwise, I might really **** somebody with way too much power enough that he might devote his time and resources to hunt down all my clones and bribe all the important people to terminate my contract and put all of this 'immortal' fantasy to an end.


Well ... I do agree that the idea we're immortal is both mistaken and a real problem. "Undead" doesn't seem like a very good description, either, though. (Shouldn't I remember dying?)

If we really have to pick a term ... how about "serially mortal?"

We're mortal. And then we're mortal again. And again. And again.

... Like reincarnation without having to bother growing up again each time. And there's no guarantee that this life or that one won't be the last.
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#15 - 2015-09-10 16:52:25 UTC
I think the topic poster needs to improve his translation algorithms. Its barely comprehensible and I speak his language.

As for the undead, immortal, whatever. Its all just words, semantic arguments to try to put us into neat boxes and define what we are. The thing is, we have those boxes already. We're capsuleers, that's our box. We don't need to add loaded words like undead or immortal to the mess.

I'm alive, I'm not undead. I'm not some sort of spooky monster that steals goats in the middle of the night. If you tried to ascribe the term undead to me, you could equally well apply it to everyone alive.

Immortality itself is another loaded term, as Elmund well illustrates with his beliefs surrounding immortality in his post. If we're going to define immortality as 'unkillable' then there's nothing we have that can come close to it, and it might not be possible. But just because we are capable of dying doesn't mean we have to.

I like the term 'indefinite longevity' as a descriptor over 'immortality' based on Elmund's definition of immortal. Accidents happen, databases are corrupted, and people still die, but they don't have to. You might still be killable, technically, regardless of how many safeguards are put into place. However, this does not mean you have an expiration date. It means that you won't get old and wrinkly and drop dead. Your longevity is indefinite, there is no fixed upper limit imposed on our lifespans by the universe, you could hypothetically, live to see the last stars go out in the universe. I intend to be there, and maybe I'll die before then and won't see it...but maybe I won't.

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#16 - 2015-09-10 17:40:18 UTC
I live.

I die.

I live again.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Praezius Vheruk
Gozantii Industries
#17 - 2015-09-10 17:47:04 UTC
Saede Riordan,Kre'altha hii mev ilra vema se'levat elu li'nama? Peialma nesi ve sal Matar ilra ath'sa?

A less 'den kin't 'xamplin', bu' val'd. I's a kee' tae me words, 's 'dey aor, fer nao'. Me algor's're busy; ye'll gae pass't 't, nae ye worr'.

I's t'ank ye, eac' an't all.
I's gae mech tae t'in on, nao', an't aor 'appy tae dae sae.
Goo' t'oughts, bae all, 'dis day.

Floa' sa'e, an't goo' 'untin'.

Praezius Vheruk
Gozantii Industries, Inc
CEO

To discern faith from falsehood, first one must secure themselves to a lover. Raise the stakes from nightly, to permanent, and faith shall be found at the threshold of one's soul. ( Cup Size < Compassion's Depth, Love = Faith )
Rook Moray
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2015-09-10 17:58:51 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I live.

I die.

I live again.



That's it.

You're not a meatsuit with a soul, you're a soul riding a meatsuit.

All things are born, live, die, are reborn. All energy does is change.

Say you're flying along in a basic frigate. Not a bad ship and it gets you around. Then you buy a nicer frigate. Then you buy a T3 Dessie. The ships change, maybe they get blown up, but you climb aboard another ship and keep flying. That's what being us is. We change bodies, we change ships, but our soul, our essential self remains. That can't be destroyed, only changed. Even if your body were to die with no clone transfer, your soul would still be reborn somewhere else as someone else. I try not to worry about the death and rebirth part and try to concentrate on what's going on as I live.

“When you want to know how things really work, study them when they're coming apart.” -Guristas Proverb.
Able Citizen
Grimm Hounds
SONS of BANE
#19 - 2015-09-10 18:08:24 UTC
Praezius Vheruk wrote:
Nao', ye dae nae knae me, sae 'llow me tae ma'e mese'f knaen tae ye. Praezius Vheruk, CEO o'Gozantii Industries, at'n yer serv'ce.

'Kay, sae ye'd ma'e a ma' t'in' 'baou' yer wor's, an't a ma' wot dae mech t'in'in 'n a day; may I's ast ye tae further s'plain yer meanin's o'a phrase ye le't a t'read wi' earlier, 'dis nigh'?

"Elmund Egivan" wrote:
We aren't immortal. We are the undead.


Nao', bae me aen b'liefs, ye bae sae'n we's folk tae burst tae flame w'en 'de sun 'its us, 'dat we bae feeders offen aor bruddas n'sistas... bu', bu' nae, 'dat daen fit, nedder. Iffin we's 'de un-deat', 'den we's nae 'ble tae feed aor'se'fs, 's aor bretteren folk're 'de sa'e 's we.

Woul' ye bae sae kin't 's tae s'plain yer ideals?

Sinc'rely,

Praezius Vheruk


I've never understood the phenomenon of writing the way one speaks. It appears you have an interesting speaking dialect, sir, but does that translate into the written word? Given the state of technology, surely there must be a translation program that can decode your spoken word accurately.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2015-09-10 18:22:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Rook Moray wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I live.

I die.

I live again.



That's it.

You're not a meatsuit with a soul, you're a soul riding a meatsuit.

All things are born, live, die, are reborn. All energy does is change.

Say you're flying along in a basic frigate. Not a bad ship and it gets you around. Then you buy a nicer frigate. Then you buy a T3 Dessie. The ships change, maybe they get blown up, but you climb aboard another ship and keep flying. That's what being us is. We change bodies, we change ships, but our soul, our essential self remains. That can't be destroyed, only changed. Even if your body were to die with no clone transfer, your soul would still be reborn somewhere else as someone else. I try not to worry about the death and rebirth part and try to concentrate on what's going on as I live.


You forget though, that there's a meat-body inside the capsule inside the ship. If the capsule is breached, the meat-body dies.

And then you awaken in another body with the mother of all hangovers.

And then you repeat.

Maybe you suffer from existential crisis. Maybe you are having way too much fun to care. Maybe you lose your empathy and become cold. Maybe you stay unchanged. Maybe you remember the exact moment you die and be a little screwed because of it. Maybe you don't and you can pretend that your consciousness is a constant stream with some rather large bumps.

Regardless, you will carry on, living after death, doing the same thing or change the routine, again and again, over and over, until the day somebody decides to pull the plug, cut the tethers, and put an end to this puppet play. Perhaps, the end is by your will, having grown tired of the charade. Perhaps it's decided by others who deemed it expedient to have your threads severed.

Doesn't matter. What should matter to us is...exactly what kind of puppet play do we want our peculiar existence to be?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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