These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Marauders Need a Damage Bonus While Stuck in Bastion
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2015-09-09 15:59:36 UTC
And..... no. Marauders are already obscene in bastion.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#62 - 2015-09-09 21:16:20 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
And..... no. Marauders are already obscene in bastion.


This essentially... However, my concern is not with Marauders in Bastion, but rather, Marauders out of bastion.
There's generally no reason to use a marauder without Bastion, which makes marauders useless for fleets and with mobile fits.

I think Bastion is fine as is, but these ships need something to make them viable out of bastion.

Bastion will always be preferred for solo pvp and PVE due to tank bonus, range bonus, and ewar immunity.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#63 - 2015-09-09 22:51:31 UTC  |  Edited by: unidenify
Joe Risalo wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
And..... no. Marauders are already obscene in bastion.


This essentially... However, my concern is not with Marauders in Bastion, but rather, Marauders out of bastion.
There's generally no reason to use a marauder without Bastion, which makes marauders useless for fleets and with mobile fits.

I think Bastion is fine as is, but these ships need something to make them viable out of bastion.

Bastion will always be preferred for solo pvp and PVE due to tank bonus, range bonus, and ewar immunity.


Would have bonus toward Defensive Ewar would help?

Tracking Disruptor for Paladin, Sensor Damp for Krono, ECM for Golem, and Web range for Vargur?

if necessary, may have bastion reduce their effective by % during active so it is only useful for out of bastion
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#64 - 2015-09-10 00:36:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
unidenify wrote:
[quote=Joe Risalo]

Would have bonus toward Defensive Ewar would help?

Tracking Disruptor for Paladin, Sensor Damp for Krono, ECM for Golem, and Web range for Vargur?

if necessary, may have bastion reduce their effective by % during active so it is only useful for out of bastion


No, that's a bad idea.

Only thing Marauders need is increased sensor strength and MAYBE scan res.
As far as sensor strength, Balance it to that of other battleships.


Edit...
Although, I would like to see their standard ship rep bonus applied to received remote reps.
It would be a very nice bonus when out of bastion, that once again, still makes bastion viable when solo.
Sandrilla Sastrum
Doomheim
#65 - 2015-09-10 06:38:42 UTC
Sobaan Tali wrote:
They're built for strong local tanks and for weapons projection. This makes them really only useful in the small gang fighting, but virtually a deathtrap in encounters with larger groups. Raw DPS is the Pirate ships' expertise. CCP already made the mistake of trying to force a non-PvP oriented ship class into PvP, fortunately for them it did not ruin there ability in their historical role and in fact somehow improved it in many ways. They will always be very niche in PvP. This does not make them weak, just very niche. They don't need that kind of help.

Sensor strength is, in opinion, a far better goal to improving things for them without making them too powerful. Though, they do need to be especially weak to capacitor warfare, I feel.


I disagree, I finally get that they aren't meant to be heavy damage dealers but at least give them a means of survival against the most OP & very common cap warfare that every small gang will include (along with logi) in their little raiding parties. Bastions needs a -50% Resistance against enemy Neutralization/Vampire effects. Also a reduction in Bastion cycle duration down to 30 secs would also be a necessity. But perhaps these features should be incorporated in Bastion Module II that also would require Marauders V to use.
Sandrilla Sastrum
Doomheim
#66 - 2015-09-10 06:49:31 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
And..... no. Marauders are already obscene in bastion.


Please, you must live in HI-sec.

In a WH with all holes closed and the statics at criticals, all it would take is 5 Sentinels, 5 Svipuls, and 5 Hecates to make life miserable for any Marauder pilot that gets dunked on by these little vipers.
Sandrilla Sastrum
Doomheim
#67 - 2015-09-10 06:58:46 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
unidenify wrote:
[quote=Joe Risalo]

Would have bonus toward Defensive Ewar would help?

Tracking Disruptor for Paladin, Sensor Damp for Krono, ECM for Golem, and Web range for Vargur?

if necessary, may have bastion reduce their effective by % during active so it is only useful for out of bastion


No, that's a bad idea.

Only thing Marauders need is increased sensor strength and MAYBE scan res.
As far as sensor strength, Balance it to that of other battleships.


Edit...
Although, I would like to see their standard ship rep bonus applied to received remote reps.
It would be a very nice bonus when out of bastion, that once again, still makes bastion viable when solo.


You want Marauders to be fleet viable? I think not. There are too many fleet oriented ships in eve as is. Marauders stand out by having it's own niche as a solo PVE boat. If used in fleets then the next thing you know multiple Marauder doctrines would rise and the forums would bleed to death about how OP they are.
Anthar Thebess
#68 - 2015-09-10 07:19:39 UTC
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
Salutations again everyone. Another idea begin bugging me when I was playing with EFT and started to notice the HUGE damage spike the Dreads get when using Siege II and notice absolutely no damage increase when Marauders use Bastion. Does CCP believes that 1k dps for a bill isk ship while completely immobile is sufficient? Unless you decide of course to glass cannon fit them with polarized weapons (which is completely idiotic) you're gonna see dps in the ranges of 800-900 dps with good tanky fits. The tanky fits helps you survive in PVE environments, not PVP. In pvp situations they have to deal with tons of logi and neut happy Geddons so you need strong dps to break the logi tanks so you can kill the neuters or tacklers and escape. So I propose that CCP add a weapon damage bonus to the Marauders while they're stuck.....umm using Bastion Mode. I'm not proposing a huge damage spike like the Dreads get in Siege, but just a modest 50% weapon damage bonus to Marauders while using Bastion. This will at least give them a chance to kill the logi chain so they'll have a chance to survive at least.


Siege :
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Siege_Module_I

Bastion
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Bastion_Module_I

2 different modules, for 2 different ship classes - why are you even comparing them ?
Marauders are way OP for higsec PVE , why make them even stronger.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Sandrilla Sastrum
Doomheim
#69 - 2015-09-10 08:19:42 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
Salutations again everyone. Another idea begin bugging me when I was playing with EFT and started to notice the HUGE damage spike the Dreads get when using Siege II and notice absolutely no damage increase when Marauders use Bastion. Does CCP believes that 1k dps for a bill isk ship while completely immobile is sufficient? Unless you decide of course to glass cannon fit them with polarized weapons (which is completely idiotic) you're gonna see dps in the ranges of 800-900 dps with good tanky fits. The tanky fits helps you survive in PVE environments, not PVP. In pvp situations they have to deal with tons of logi and neut happy Geddons so you need strong dps to break the logi tanks so you can kill the neuters or tacklers and escape. So I propose that CCP add a weapon damage bonus to the Marauders while they're stuck.....umm using Bastion Mode. I'm not proposing a huge damage spike like the Dreads get in Siege, but just a modest 50% weapon damage bonus to Marauders while using Bastion. This will at least give them a chance to kill the logi chain so they'll have a chance to survive at least.


Siege :
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Siege_Module_I

Bastion
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Bastion_Module_I

2 different modules, for 2 different ship classes - why are you even comparing them ?
Marauders are way OP for higsec PVE , why make them even stronger.


Who said anything about using them for high sec PVE?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2015-09-10 08:38:12 UTC
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
And..... no. Marauders are already obscene in bastion.


Please, you must live in HI-sec.

In a WH with all holes closed and the statics at criticals, all it would take is 5 Sentinels, 5 Svipuls, and 5 Hecates to make life miserable for any Marauder pilot that gets dunked on by these little vipers.


5 bonused neuters and probably 6 thousand incoming DPS....yeah, I can't imagine why anything should die to that when its alone Roll



Seriously, read what you just wrote - one ship vs FIFTEEN T2/T3 ships and you're not happy it'll lose?


I go back to my original post : you are asking for - and will not get - a one man wtfomgbbqownzonepwnmobile.
Sandrilla Sastrum
Doomheim
#71 - 2015-09-10 08:59:48 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
And..... no. Marauders are already obscene in bastion.


Please, you must live in HI-sec.

In a WH with all holes closed and the statics at criticals, all it would take is 5 Sentinels, 5 Svipuls, and 5 Hecates to make life miserable for any Marauder pilot that gets dunked on by these little vipers.


5 bonused neuters and probably 6 thousand incoming DPS....yeah, I can't imagine why anything should die to that when its alone Roll



Seriously, read what you just wrote - one ship vs FIFTEEN T2/T3 ships and you're not happy it'll lose?


I go back to my original post : you are asking for - and will not get - a one man wtfomgbbqownzonepwnmobile.


Yea your right, I should've been more realistic. 3 Sentinels, 2 Svipuls, and 2 Hecates is all it would take to murder any Marauder pilot.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2015-09-10 09:15:45 UTC
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
And..... no. Marauders are already obscene in bastion.


Please, you must live in HI-sec.

In a WH with all holes closed and the statics at criticals, all it would take is 5 Sentinels, 5 Svipuls, and 5 Hecates to make life miserable for any Marauder pilot that gets dunked on by these little vipers.


5 bonused neuters and probably 6 thousand incoming DPS....yeah, I can't imagine why anything should die to that when its alone Roll



Seriously, read what you just wrote - one ship vs FIFTEEN T2/T3 ships and you're not happy it'll lose?


I go back to my original post : you are asking for - and will not get - a one man wtfomgbbqownzonepwnmobile.


Yea your right, I should've been more realistic. 3 Sentinels, 2 Svipuls, and 2 Hecates is all it would take to murder any Marauder pilot.


A golem actually has good odds of winning that fight, if correctly fit.

Honestly, the fact that's even possible is a bit shady. They shouldn't be able to smash 7 other guys off field alone.
Sandrilla Sastrum
Doomheim
#73 - 2015-09-10 14:48:59 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
And..... no. Marauders are already obscene in bastion.


Please, you must live in HI-sec.

In a WH with all holes closed and the statics at criticals, all it would take is 5 Sentinels, 5 Svipuls, and 5 Hecates to make life miserable for any Marauder pilot that gets dunked on by these little vipers.


5 bonused neuters and probably 6 thousand incoming DPS....yeah, I can't imagine why anything should die to that when its alone Roll



Seriously, read what you just wrote - one ship vs FIFTEEN T2/T3 ships and you're not happy it'll lose?


I go back to my original post : you are asking for - and will not get - a one man wtfomgbbqownzonepwnmobile.


Yea your right, I should've been more realistic. 3 Sentinels, 2 Svipuls, and 2 Hecates is all it would take to murder any Marauder pilot.


A golem actually has good odds of winning that fight, if correctly fit.

Honestly, the fact that's even possible is a bit shady. They shouldn't be able to smash 7 other guys off field alone.


Marauders are suppose to be the most powerful sub-caps in the game, so it they can't kill 8 small sigs then something is wrong. The damage bonus I proposed was an error due to my misinterpretation of their roles. But I seriously believe that Bastion should be given a bonus to help against cap warfare. That or give the Marauders a better base cap recharge. Also the bastion cycle is too long and should be reduce to 30 secs.

Again I think they should incorporate those features into a Bastion Module II with a higher skill requirement.
Solarus Explorer
The Veterans' Lounge
#74 - 2015-09-10 15:36:43 UTC
Suggestion: How about a high slot module that prevents the target from receiving any remote assistance?..... like reps and cap....
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#75 - 2015-09-10 19:47:45 UTC
At first I liked the idea then i remembered what this would do to highsec incursions.

Do not want.

They are farmed too much already.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#76 - 2015-09-10 20:00:36 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
At first I liked the idea then i remembered what this would do to highsec incursions.

Do not want.

They are farmed too much already.



If you're speaking of the Damage buff, it would not apply to an incursion.
Marauders cannot receive remote assistance while in Bastion, thus drawing aggro in an incursion would mean you get volleyed off the field due to no reps. Note, you get neuted in incursions as well.
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#77 - 2015-09-10 20:41:35 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Ok good.

So sure, if there were logi or neuts then they have trouble. Of course you need to remember that is one marauder versus a fleet.

Now imagine half a dozen, a dozen....they'd be utterly unstoppable. Literally nothing, short of perhaps blap dreads, is going to scale like they would to counter.

You'd have ships on field with what, 10k DPS local tanks, already upwards of 1k DPS - how high do you want it?!


That's kinda normal... have you seen their cost? Mine cost more than a fully fitted dread or even a fully fitted and moderately pimped carrier...

They do lack damage, i get about 1000dps out of my golem. Sure the tank is absurd... but that's what its suppose to do... tank a lot.

Been around since the beginning.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2015-09-10 21:48:42 UTC
d0cTeR9 wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Ok good.

So sure, if there were logi or neuts then they have trouble. Of course you need to remember that is one marauder versus a fleet.

Now imagine half a dozen, a dozen....they'd be utterly unstoppable. Literally nothing, short of perhaps blap dreads, is going to scale like they would to counter.

You'd have ships on field with what, 10k DPS local tanks, already upwards of 1k DPS - how high do you want it?!


That's kinda normal... have you seen their cost? Mine cost more than a fully fitted dread or even a fully fitted and moderately pimped carrier...

They do lack damage, i get about 1000dps out of my golem. Sure the tank is absurd... but that's what its suppose to do... tank a lot.


Cost is not a reason to make a ship obsolete all others though, is it?
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2015-09-10 22:50:27 UTC
In their place, Marauders are monsters. From a PVE standpoint(which we tend to forget alot) they are massively OP. Against small groups of ships who aren't prepared for them, or in small groups, marauders can smash small fleets. Sure they 'only do 1000DPS,' but unlike a 1400 DPS vindicator who misses half the time, marauders put that dps on target exceedingly reliably, and don't have to worry about ewar.


Because people don't use the right or get countered isn't a reason to take something that is already very capable and make it impossibly OP. If anything I'd like to see them a larger cargo bay, since they're not having to use that space for weapons systems.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#80 - 2015-09-10 23:41:53 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
In their place, Marauders are monsters. From a PVE standpoint(which we tend to forget alot) they are massively OP. Against small groups of ships who aren't prepared for them, or in small groups, marauders can smash small fleets. Sure they 'only do 1000DPS,' but unlike a 1400 DPS vindicator who misses half the time, marauders put that dps on target exceedingly reliably, and don't have to worry about ewar.


Because people don't use the right or get countered isn't a reason to take something that is already very capable and make it impossibly OP. If anything I'd like to see them a larger cargo bay, since they're not having to use that space for weapons systems.



I would argue against OP in PVE.
They're extremely good, but only due to range, ewar immunity, and tanking bonus specifically tied to bastion, which is weak to cap war and immobile.

As far as PVP OP... Again, also not true.
They're locked into Bastion in order to be considered effective.
They're easily countered by neuts, immobility means they must rely on killing them within point range without being able to chase the target, and inability to receive ANY remote assistance when in Bastion means they can rely on no one.

I agree that they're very capable, but this insanity of claiming they're OP has got to stop.
Marauders are actually quite weak.
Bastion makes them viable, but they're far from OP considering the drawbacks of bastion.

Not to say they need more, but they definitely don't need less.