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Credit rating, trust, bonds and hello MD
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#21 - 2015-09-08 16:45:02 UTC
Plleasure Hub wrote:
it seems that the fastest possible way to find good items to produce or trade is to steal that information with an automated tool.

No, the fastest way is just to ask Rykker Bow.
Careby
#22 - 2015-09-08 17:07:23 UTC
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
I've never really believed the whole API secret stealing traders, by the time they've set up something that can successful harvest enough API keys to get any decent info they've already spent hundred of hours that could've been used to earn ISK...


I've never really believed people climb Mount Everest. It seems like a lot of work for little reward.

Some of the best known scams in the history of EVE took a lot of time and effort. What could have been earned by spending those same hours in other ways is irrelevant.

Besides, paranoia does not require reason.
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#23 - 2015-09-08 19:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Elizabeth Norn
Plleasure Hub wrote:
Hundreds of hours? I'll have it done in 10.

Seriously, though. It would be trivial to write a bit of code that saves all available wallet and journal entries. And given all the time that can go into market research, including things that are hard to code (knowledge of competition levels, long-term patterns), it seems that the fastest possible way to find good items to produce or trade is to steal that information with an automated tool.


You could do it with spreadsheet in less than an hour, but how are you going to make people want to give you their API keys and keep them there? That's where the hundreds of hours I was referring to come in, building something that people actually want.

Careby wrote:

Some of the best known scams in the history of EVE took a lot of time and effort. What could have been earned by spending those same hours in other ways is irrelevant.


The reward for stealing transaction history is more work though.

Free 3rd party services

Buddy link w/ bonus 250k SP, you keep the whole PLEX upon subscribing
goodlady Smith
TheCrazy88s
#24 - 2015-09-08 19:42:48 UTC
Would provide for some interesting market PvP. I have a theory (I like being wrong don't take this away from me). That the larger traders are integrated with the larger alliances. There is a blue donut in space and a war raging across the markets. This makes me wonder ... Who's side are you on?

Please like my posts it makes me feel better about the time I spend on the forums WTS... Smiles
Careby
#25 - 2015-09-08 19:58:01 UTC
goodlady Smith wrote:
Would provide for some interesting market PvP. I have a theory (I like being wrong don't take this away from me). That the larger traders are integrated with the larger alliances. There is a blue donut in space and a war raging across the markets. This makes me wonder ... Who's side are you on?


It's not so much that I like being wrong, but let's just say I've gotten used to it.

I think in EVE, as in real life, business transcends arbitrary political boundaries. Supply both sides, celebrate the destruction of your product, and then sell 'em some more.
Plleasure Hub
Municorn
#26 - 2015-09-08 22:33:39 UTC
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
You could do it with spreadsheet in less than an hour, but how are you going to make people want to give you their API keys and keep them there? That's where the hundreds of hours I was referring to come in, building something that people actually want.

I see your point. Someone building an application for the specific purpose of mining data covertly is not what I worry about. I was thinking more along the lines of an established app developer being tempted to look at private trading data of the app's users. This could happen inadvertently if the developer is debugging or troubleshooting a problem for someone. If they see a particular item with incredible stats, how could they unsee it?

Elizabeth Norn wrote:
The reward for stealing transaction history is more work though.

That depends on the situation. There are always bottlenecks in any player's overall operation. For me, it is mostly capital right now. I produce full blast until I get to a point where I run out of ISK to supply new lines, and then I wait for items to sell before continuing. I could argue that information is another bottleneck. With better information, I could pursue production lines and trades that will yield more net profit per day. This would leave me more capital, and in turn, allow me to make even more ISK.

That is not the best example, because I reinvest all my earnings immediately. Maybe more information would mean more work. But that is only because I want to continue increasing my profit over time. If I reached a point where I was earning plenty of ISK per month to live comfortably, better information could mean less work for the same profits.

"There's no meaningful difference between a real and a virtual world. It's pointless to ask anyone who they really are. All you can do is accept and believe in them, because whoever they are in your mind, is their true identity." — Kazuto Kirigaya
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#27 - 2015-09-09 01:01:16 UTC
Plleasure Hub wrote:
I always enjoy your Machiavellian mindset, Sabriz. Pirate That scenario sounds plausible, but the number of people willing and capable to invest the time and effort into such a scam is small. Does anyone have links to some elaborate scams like this in the past?

...

Lastly, by making the source code available, the integrity of the program would be subject to public evaluation. A weak link in this approach is that for the reports to carry any weight, users must trust the developer to run the exact version to match the published source code, rather than a customized version granting them the ability to spy on the details of the report or falsify data to support scammers.



It's not even a particularly elaborate scam and it's more profit (per minute of playtime invested) than lots of other things people do for ISK, like grinding incursions.

On the source code - if the source code is available so is the precise methodology. A big part of why VEDA keep their algorithims secret is to prevent people playing IRL trust building games.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Plleasure Hub
Municorn
#28 - 2015-09-09 01:22:45 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
A big part of why VEDA keep their algorithims secret is to prevent people playing IRL trust building games.

What do you mean by that last bit?

"There's no meaningful difference between a real and a virtual world. It's pointless to ask anyone who they really are. All you can do is accept and believe in them, because whoever they are in your mind, is their true identity." — Kazuto Kirigaya
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#29 - 2015-09-09 01:58:25 UTC
Plleasure Hub wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
A big part of why VEDA keep their algorithims secret is to prevent people playing IRL trust building games.

What do you mean by that last bit?



Taking out precisely calculated unneeded loans to lower the cost of future credit (both for legitimate credit e.g. home loans, and for strategic bankruptcy frauds i.e. loans you intend to default on and declare bankruptcy over).

It's generally known that certain actions will increase your VEDA score - e.g. if you actually need to be $3000 in debt on credit cards, you have a better VEDA score with two credit cards that have a combined $12k limit than if you have one card with a $3500 limit, and it's also generally known that making more than one or two applications for credit in a 3 month period is a major red flag.

But few people actually know the details of the system.

Basically the more that people can 'game' their score, the less accurately the score measures your creditworthiness, and the more accurately it measures how well you understand their algorithim.

Just think of it from this perspective: If you were a person with an IRL moral set similar to my EVE character's in-game moral set, how could you abuse knowing exactly how their algorithim works? Then remind yourself - such people exist.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Plleasure Hub
Municorn
#30 - 2015-09-09 02:14:41 UTC
Ohhhhhhh. I understand you now. Thanks for explaining. I have heard of a little of that before.

My first instinct was that if a "trust algorithm" were designed for EVE, that its inner workings would need to be publicly known for it to have any merit. I figured that was more important than the downside of that knowledge being exploited to game the algorithm.

I wonder if brilliant-enough minds could create an algorithm so robust that it can be both publicly known and very difficult to game. I would say impossible, but we all know that most impossible things are simply the result of magnetism.

"There's no meaningful difference between a real and a virtual world. It's pointless to ask anyone who they really are. All you can do is accept and believe in them, because whoever they are in your mind, is their true identity." — Kazuto Kirigaya
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#31 - 2015-09-09 13:51:20 UTC
Plleasure Hub wrote:
Ohhhhhhh. I understand you now. Thanks for explaining. I have heard of a little of that before.

My first instinct was that if a "trust algorithm" were designed for EVE, that its inner workings would need to be publicly known for it to have any merit. I figured that was more important than the downside of that knowledge being exploited to game the algorithm.

I wonder if brilliant-enough minds could create an algorithm so robust that it can be both publicly known and very difficult to game. I would say impossible, but we all know that most impossible things are simply the result of magnetism.



F'ing magnets - how do they work?

Public Key Encryption is an algorithm IRL for some other application that does work even if the attacker trying to break it knows how it works. But it's for a very different purpose.

I see only one algorithim that works for trust in EVE - count up the time needed to backstab me, and assess with that whether the amount they can steal AND the lulz they can get is worth that time investment or not.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Careby
#32 - 2015-09-09 16:49:15 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
...I see only one algorithim that works for trust in EVE - count up the time needed to backstab me, and assess with that whether the amount they can steal AND the lulz they can get is worth that time investment or not.


Even that one is flawed. Different lulz thresholds lead to different counts.
Plleasure Hub
Municorn
#33 - 2015-09-09 21:17:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Plleasure Hub
"The Sabriz-Careby-Plleasure Magnetic Theory of Trustworthiness"

t * (P of ethical disregard) >= isk + lulz

where

t = time needed to backstab
P of ethical disregard = the probability, from 0 to 1, of disregarding personal values (if any) in the EVE universe
isk = the amount you can steal
lulz = n of funny events caused where (funniness >= lulz threshold)


To make the terms uniform for comparison's sake, we can convert non-ISK terms to ISK terms.
Let us assume t (time) is measured in seconds.

(t * ISK earnable per second) * (P of ethical disregard) <= isk + (lulz * isk value per lul)

EDIT: Sorry, I had the inequality sign backwards. Basically, what this formula says is that "You are trustworthy when the value of the time it would take you to backstab someone multiplied by the likelihood of you betraying them is greater than or equal to the amount you can steal plus the value of the lulz."

So using this formula, someone could have the opportunity to steal much more than the value of the time it takes to set up the scam and still be trustworthy if the likelihood of them betraying their own ethical values within EVE is low enough.

"There's no meaningful difference between a real and a virtual world. It's pointless to ask anyone who they really are. All you can do is accept and believe in them, because whoever they are in your mind, is their true identity." — Kazuto Kirigaya
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