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Remote repair modules - rebalance of the mechanic.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2015-09-09 13:25:58 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
We already have the mechanic whereby only one tractor can operate on an object at once, expand this to the logi modules maybe.


Can we apply this to gun also? I mean, why can you team up to an infinite number while the logi could not?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#22 - 2015-09-09 13:29:35 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
IMO remote capacitor transfers should use cap booster charges and not create cap from a vacuum.


But that will buff neuts even more. I hate neuts.

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Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#23 - 2015-09-09 14:18:46 UTC
The real broken thing here is warfare links. It makes logistics scale so incredibly well that it leads to the dominance of remote repair on the battlefield.

Having the resist and repair speed warfare links means that you tank 82% more from remote reps than a ship without links, which is just insane. Check out Suitonias post for a more in-depth explanation.
https://suitonia.wordpress.com/2015/08/25/links-part-2-just-how-broken-are-links-maths-and-words-edition/
Helios Panala
#24 - 2015-09-09 15:36:48 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Fixing Logistics

Worth to read an consider his words.


Seems pretty well thought out, even remembers to think of the poor logi drones.
Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation
Care Factor
#25 - 2015-09-09 16:39:37 UTC
Helios Panala wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Fixing Logistics

Worth to read an consider his words.


Seems pretty well thought out, even remembers to think of the poor logi drones.



I read through it, and I like it...

But wait, I feel like I've read it before...

Oh, yeah... here it is, like 3 months ago even. Not sure if everyone's feelings have changed, but I got pretty thoroughly Ram-Rodded on that idea. I think it holds merit though.

Cedric
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2015-09-09 17:31:25 UTC
So what you're basicly saying is: Instead of being repped for that duration, you are continously repped a little amount by each mili-second? Cause if that is what you're saying then yes, supported.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2015-09-09 17:49:28 UTC
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
So what you're basicly saying is: Instead of being repped for that duration, you are continously repped a little amount by each mili-second? Cause if that is what you're saying then yes, supported.


It would be each seconds or the server would **** itself up.

Just sayin'.
Mr Pimms
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#28 - 2015-09-09 17:52:38 UTC
Confirming Logi is working as intended.

No changes needed

██ (ಠ_ృ) yes, quite
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2015-09-09 19:08:11 UTC
Posting my two bits without other suggestions read (quick pop in)

Fixing logi really needs a less direct approach. Problem with logi is that the combat promotes alpha an F1. If spread combat is made viable, suddenly logis are needed in higher quantities in a defensive game. Suddenly that becomes a tradeoff. Ships potentially more invincible but logi now more vulnerable. Tradeoff of fleet damage for survivability.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#30 - 2015-09-09 19:08:24 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
We already have the mechanic whereby only one tractor can operate on an object at once, expand this to the logi modules maybe.


Can we apply this to gun also? I mean, why can you team up to an infinite number while the logi could not?



I keep going back and rewatching the Eve trailer with the supergate...especially the sequence with the naga firing on the apoc. This video, along with almost all other eve trailers highlights the exact opposite of effective warfare given the current game mechanics...which is focusing all your reps, and all your firepower, on one target. That little Naga, despite how cool that attack run looked, would not be doing 'meaningful' damage in actual Eve battles.

If only there were both diminishing returns on focusing reps and Firepower both, you'd get some interesting and chaotic battles. A lot more exploding ships on both sides. Local reppers on your fleet ships would actually be both useful, and possibly very important in help keeping you alive.

But this all is just speculation. A change to either mechanic would have be be simply 'forced' by CCP. Not even sure they'd want this kind of revolution.

But definitely +1 to Frostys Virpio, these two game mechanics are very intertwined.
Thron Legacy
White Zulu
Scorpion Federation
#31 - 2015-09-09 20:30:47 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
We already have the mechanic whereby only one tractor can operate on an object at once, expand this to the logi modules maybe.


Can we apply this to gun also? I mean, why can you team up to an infinite number while the logi could not?



I keep going back and rewatching the Eve trailer with the supergate...especially the sequence with the naga firing on the apoc. This video, along with almost all other eve trailers highlights the exact opposite of effective warfare given the current game mechanics...which is focusing all your reps, and all your firepower, on one target. That little Naga, despite how cool that attack run looked, would not be doing 'meaningful' damage in actual Eve battles.

If only there were both diminishing returns on focusing reps and Firepower both, you'd get some interesting and chaotic battles. A lot more exploding ships on both sides. Local reppers on your fleet ships would actually be both useful, and possibly very important in help keeping you alive.

But this all is just speculation. A change to either mechanic would have be be simply 'forced' by CCP. Not even sure they'd want this kind of revolution.

But definitely +1 to Frostys Virpio, these two game mechanics are very intertwined.


Diminishing on both heal and damage... Sounds AWESOME tbh
Vic Jefferson
ElitistOps
WE FORM V0LTA
#32 - 2015-09-09 21:31:23 UTC
The one thing that never gets mentioned in all these logi threads is the impact of the sniping/kitting meta. Bigger fleets that use overtanked, extreme range, low DPS ships essentially fight a duel to the death with nerf weapons at 100km, then they wonder why they can't break each other's reps.

Granted, brawling needs a lot of things to change to make it viable as a big fleet doctrine, but maybe you should examine both the numbers and the fleet comps that are used before leaping to the erroneous conclusion that Logi is broken in and of itself.

Lowsec/WH people don't have a problem ripping into each other as much as anaemic and impotent Null fleets do. Why is this?

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Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2015-09-09 21:40:07 UTC
Dr Cedric wrote:
Helios Panala wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Fixing Logistics

Worth to read an consider his words.


Seems pretty well thought out, even remembers to think of the poor logi drones.



I read through it, and I like it...

But wait, I feel like I've read it before...

Oh, yeah... here it is, like 3 months ago even. Not sure if everyone's feelings have changed, but I got pretty thoroughly Ram-Rodded on that idea. I think it holds merit though.


Well at least two individuals who care of modern logistics warefare thinking same way of each other. And it's good.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2015-09-09 23:36:11 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
The one thing that never gets mentioned in all these logi threads is the impact of the sniping/kitting meta. Bigger fleets that use overtanked, extreme range, low DPS ships essentially fight a duel to the death with nerf weapons at 100km, then they wonder why they can't break each other's reps.

Granted, brawling needs a lot of things to change to make it viable as a big fleet doctrine, but maybe you should examine both the numbers and the fleet comps that are used before leaping to the erroneous conclusion that Logi is broken in and of itself.

Lowsec/WH people don't have a problem ripping into each other as much as anaemic and impotent Null fleets do. Why is this?



I always wonder why people called big fights brawls when long range sentry and rails are the weapon of choices...
Anthar Thebess
#35 - 2015-09-10 07:11:52 UTC
Longrange weapons have lower DPS but usually better alpha strike.
If you have enough ships you can alpha enemy ship before he gets enough reps , something that is not possible on closer ranges , as it is easier to rep high DPS but small alpha.

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Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2015-09-10 07:47:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
https://youtu.be/OSxSyv4LC1cc - (0:40 - 0:50) then (1:30 - 1:40) it's all about range Roll

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2015-09-10 08:50:03 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:

Lowsec/WH people don't have a problem ripping into each other as much as anaemic and impotent Null fleets do. Why is this?



Well from my experience, WH fleets tend not to be tidi inducing monsters, thus they tend to lack the critical mass required to tip anaemic personal DPS into enough alpha to break things. Equally the same is true for the other side in terms of reps etc.

I guess it is a question of battle scale.

I couldn't comment on lowsec - it has no limitations like WH - perhaps simply a population issue?
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2015-09-10 12:36:58 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Longrange weapons have lower DPS but usually better alpha strike.
If you have enough ships you can alpha enemy ship before he gets enough reps , something that is not possible on closer ranges , as it is easier to rep high DPS but small alpha.


Your alpha isn't all that good when using long range ammo. High dps low alpha is only easyer to rep if your reps are still higher than the total dps of your brawling short range enemy. They have both higher dps and more thna likely apply more of it as long as the kiting/sniping didn't re-open the gap. The alpha strategy only work if you ahve your critical mass. If you can't alpha a ship off withing your first 2-3 volley, you are wasting your time as you will not outdo the reps. You potentially can outdo them with higher DPS weapon systems except right now, it's kite/snipe city all the time.
Luscius Uta
#39 - 2015-09-10 13:17:38 UTC
Logis needs to be nerfed, there's two things that make them broken and owerpowered: the ability to use large reps and their very small signature radius.

HACs don't get a bonus to large guns, so why Logis have a bonus to large reps? I say replace their CPU/PG reduction of large reps with 7.5% bonus to rep amount as seen on T1 Logis so the only way to fit large reps is to use several fitting mods, sacrificing tank and/or cap stability, and make their signature radius comparable with other T2 Cruisers.

Eventually CCP could introduce a class of T2 Battleship Logis which would have more slots that current Cruiser-based Logis and could fit large reps without fitting sacrifices, but they should also have standard disadvantages of a Battleship, such as high signature radius and low scan resolution (would also be perfect ships to have a bonus to remote sensor boosters).

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Anthar Thebess
#40 - 2015-09-10 13:31:40 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
Logis needs to be nerfed, there's two things that make them broken and owerpowered: the ability to use large reps and their very small signature radius.

HACs don't get a bonus to large guns, so why Logis have a bonus to large reps? I say replace their CPU/PG reduction of large reps with 7.5% bonus to rep amount as seen on T1 Logis so the only way to fit large reps is to use several fitting mods, sacrificing tank and/or cap stability, and make their signature radius comparable with other T2 Cruisers.

Eventually CCP could introduce a class of T2 Battleship Logis which would have more slots that current Cruiser-based Logis and could fit large reps without fitting sacrifices, but they should also have standard disadvantages of a Battleship, such as high signature radius and low scan resolution (would also be perfect ships to have a bonus to remote sensor boosters).


People are using very often medium reps , as they allow to fit more tank.
You simply need more logistics, that are harder to kill.

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