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Is alt convenience worth the detriment to the game?
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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#61 - 2015-09-08 01:22:34 UTC
I hate alts, I despise the concept so much, I've created one just to murder it over and over and over again.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2015-09-08 02:37:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinete Jenius
Estevan Valladares wrote:
The average person which has never multiboxed count as impossible what is simply a matter of training. Most of the times, non-multiboxers think that multiboxers play like a lot of single players, and that is impossible. "Dont try to bend the spoon, it is impossible. Instead, try to realize the truth: There is no spoon. And you see that what bends is just yourself."

Not everyone bearing multiple accounts is a multiboxer, and not all multiboxers bear the number of accounts they use online at a given time.

Alts is one thing, multiboxing another.

What you say when you tell that multiboxing is impossible to achieve coordination and distinct inputs is the same as saying a person cannot play a accordion, or drive a car, or any other task that involves the same principle: Use one hand for one task and the other for another, without breaking timing. That is simple, and only requires focus and training.

But what really hurts is the fact that people know that THERE IS NO WAY under the sun you can prevent that in a fashionable way for your business. CCP is just clever and dont try. If they wanted, they could do it the same way they prevent you from logging two trial accounts at the same computer.
I've been boxing in some form or another since the days when CCP blocked making multiple accounts with the same email. I was one of those "evil" and hated isboxers my mains made a joke of PVE content and my gank/PVP alts steamrolled groups and individuals.

Without the repeater you can't achieve perfect ranges, perfectly time alphas and perfect logi while engaged in combat with a player fleet. Your individual control suffers greatly when playing so many accounts at the same time. I start losing relative skill per account after hitting 4 accounts engaged. That's barely enough to have logi let alone have perfect alpha and such. Focus and training are one thing but the physical limits of the human body are the issue. You can train all day but in the end you only have two hands and two eyes. So at any moment you're only able to control two accounts at the same time. What was being described earlier required the use of a repeater or any variety of things that are now bannable.

If you want to prove me wrong feel free to post a video of you running a fleet with perfect logi, perfectly timed alphas and perfectly controlled ranges while engaging a hostile player fleet.


For the record I can log in multiple trial accounts on the same machine. It's trivial to do so.

EDIT : I still box actually and I have a whole set of videos on my youtube channel as shown in my bio.

For example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ4LByLY5T4
Rykuss
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2015-09-08 03:20:02 UTC
How many people would fly a super/titan or 23/7 cloaky camp a system if they had to do it on the one account, one character model? Any takers? Rather than have these ridiculous nerfs to address cap proliferation and even dumber suggestions to address cloaky campers, the one account, one character model could have prevented a lot of problems with the game. Alts and Plex put cash into CCP's pocket, sure, but let's not pretend they are good for the game. Alts and Plex offer an advantage, period. If they didn't, no one would bother.

You, too, can be a Solid Gold dancer.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2015-09-08 03:26:47 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Telling people they're not good at the game because they didn't spend as much real world cash on alts/additional accounts as their competitor, is a fundamentally idiotic statement.

Eve isn't fair. It was designed that way so basically numbers are the prime factor determining the outcome of a fight. If I bring 10 friends and you bring 1, I will likely win. Are you "not good" at the game if you lose in that situation? In a sense yes, as I was able to outmaneuver you in the sandbox by bringing more friends, but you shouldn't take such a loss so personally.

Is that pay-to-win? I guess also in a sense as he who has the most friends/accounts has an advantage. But then by that definition the whole game is pay-to-win. The Imperium has the most players (and accounts) and their dominance in-game is a direct result of that. Because of their size, they are paying CCP the largest share of subscription revenue and these numbers give them an in-game advantage when they bring them to bear on a rival.

Winning in the sandbox is not only dependent on your ship piloting skill, your skill points, and your in game wealth. It very much depends on who you are flying with. Whether that is an alt or a friend is somewhat inconsequential - your ability to make social connections and bring multiple accounts to a situation will dictate how successful you are at it. That is just the type of game Eve is by design. Crying about losing to someone who has more support (friends or alts) isn't going to change anything - you still lost.


You must have missed the part where I noted the difference between bringing more friends, and bringing more alts. There is a critical difference between the two which you either miss or conveniently gloss over. Having friends in an MMO is not pay to win. Having a gang composed of your own alts which are at your call 24/7, under your complete control and not subject to any of the issues arising from relationships/cooperation between human players; this converts an MMO into an RTS where you pay cash for more units and insulate yourself from one of the (allegedly) key components of an MMO - the need to cooperate with others to achieve success in most situations.

You don't draw a distinction between 10 players cooperating to achieve a goal or 1 player with 9 alts controlling them all towards the same goal, and you don't see that one of those options is obviously better for the game. At least, that is the impression I get from your comment.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2015-09-08 03:29:34 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:

Eve isn't fair. It was designed that way so basically numbers are the prime factor determining the outcome of a fight. If I bring 10 friends and you bring 1, I will likely win. Are you "not good" at the game if you lose in that situation? In a sense yes, as I was able to outmaneuver you in the sandbox by bringing more friends, but you shouldn't take such a loss so personally.


^ this

This is the biggest problem with new players IMO, losses happen to everyone don't take it personally. Eve has a relatively low in-fight skillcap meaning that most of the "skill" is in the preparation. If you want to show your skill in eve you need to pick your fights wisely and trick your enemy into thinking he has the upper hand.



And buy alts. At the very least a scout/OGB capable alt, and then at least 2 logi/DPS alts if possible.
Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#66 - 2015-09-08 03:31:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Yang Aurilen
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:

Eve isn't fair. It was designed that way so basically numbers are the prime factor determining the outcome of a fight. If I bring 10 friends and you bring 1, I will likely win. Are you "not good" at the game if you lose in that situation? In a sense yes, as I was able to outmaneuver you in the sandbox by bringing more friends, but you shouldn't take such a loss so personally.


^ this

This is the biggest problem with new players IMO, losses happen to everyone don't take it personally. Eve has a relatively low in-fight skillcap meaning that most of the "skill" is in the preparation. If you want to show your skill in eve you need to pick your fights wisely and trick your enemy into thinking he has the upper hand.



And buy alts. At the very least a scout/OGB capable alt, and then at least 2 logi/DPS alts if possible.


0/10 Solo PVP'er no falcon alt and alt in a batphonable alliance to drop caps on anything that escalates would not even consensual solo pvp with for the sole purpose of GUD FITES.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2015-09-08 03:37:59 UTC
Yang Aurilen wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:

Eve isn't fair. It was designed that way so basically numbers are the prime factor determining the outcome of a fight. If I bring 10 friends and you bring 1, I will likely win. Are you "not good" at the game if you lose in that situation? In a sense yes, as I was able to outmaneuver you in the sandbox by bringing more friends, but you shouldn't take such a loss so personally.


^ this

This is the biggest problem with new players IMO, losses happen to everyone don't take it personally. Eve has a relatively low in-fight skillcap meaning that most of the "skill" is in the preparation. If you want to show your skill in eve you need to pick your fights wisely and trick your enemy into thinking he has the upper hand.



And buy alts. At the very least a scout/OGB capable alt, and then at least 2 logi/DPS alts if possible.


0/10 Solo PVP'er no falcon alt and alt in a batphonable alliance to drop caps on anything that escalates would not even consensual solo pvp with for the sole purpose of GUD FITES.


Aye my bad I forgot the falcon. I thought of throwing in that your DPS/logi alts should be training for triage/dreads once they're solid in subcap support, but found that slightly excessive.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2015-09-08 03:40:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Demerius Xenocratus
Zihao wrote:
They're both pay-to-win and pay-to-win is fine because productive people trade their time, doing work, for money. So faulting them for wanting to convert some of that money into game fun is just the envy of players who slave away earning isk at the equivalent of a few cents an hour..

Hope that clears things up here.


What's the point of playing a game if the only thing that matters is the size of your out of game bank account?

I don't want to play against your bank account. I want to play against your intelligence, skill, and capacity for relationship-building within this particular virtual world.

I understand if your idea of fun is dropping cash to effortlessly slaughter people in a video game, I just think that attitude is utterly horrible for gaming as a whole. It destroys the point of the entire exercise.
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2015-09-08 03:45:24 UTC
Rykuss wrote:
How many people would fly a super/titan or 23/7 cloaky camp a system if they had to do it on the one account, one character model? Any takers? Rather than have these ridiculous nerfs to address cap proliferation and even dumber suggestions to address cloaky campers, the one account, one character model could have prevented a lot of problems with the game. Alts and Plex put cash into CCP's pocket, sure, but let's not pretend they are good for the game. Alts and Plex offer an advantage, period. If they didn't, no one would bother.

Plex killed the gold spammers and thank god for that.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#70 - 2015-09-08 04:17:13 UTC
Rykuss wrote:
Alts and Plex offer an advantage, period. If they didn't, no one would bother.

Same for blue lists, which are killing eve

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2015-09-08 04:34:00 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Rykuss wrote:
Alts and Plex offer an advantage, period. If they didn't, no one would bother.

Same for blue lists, which are killing eve


Nerf friends and corpmates. They are totally killing EVE because the other side had friends or alts that killed me.X

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Salvos Rhoska
#72 - 2015-09-08 06:11:41 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Rykuss wrote:
Alts and Plex offer an advantage, period. If they didn't, no one would bother.

Same for blue lists, which are killing eve


Thanks for acknowledging.

You are now on record for having said this.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Black Pedro
Mine.
#73 - 2015-09-08 06:22:08 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
You must have missed the part where I noted the difference between bringing more friends, and bringing more alts. There is a critical difference between the two which you either miss or conveniently gloss over. Having friends in an MMO is not pay to win. Having a gang composed of your own alts which are at your call 24/7, under your complete control and not subject to any of the issues arising from relationships/cooperation between human players; this converts an MMO into an RTS where you pay cash for more units and insulate yourself from one of the (allegedly) key components of an MMO - the need to cooperate with others to achieve success in most situations.

You don't draw a distinction between 10 players cooperating to achieve a goal or 1 player with 9 alts controlling them all towards the same goal, and you don't see that one of those options is obviously better for the game. At least, that is the impression I get from your comment.
No, you are missing my point. Eve is a sandbox game so bringing friends, alts, or bigger ships are perfectly valid strategies to beat your opponents in the sandbox.

You are not entitled to a fair fight in Eve. You are not entitled to "be left alone" when have your skirmish with your enemy unmolested by the other players in the sandbox. If you find yourself outclassed, there are many ways you can beat your opponents in the sandbox. You can try to trick them, change ships, ship up to a more powerful ship, or you can call in friends or log in alts - the difference is nearly immaterial from the perspective of your opponent, If you win, you are "better at Eve" because you have won that engagement while your opponent is "not as good" as you because they lost. This was your point I was addressing.

As to whether the game would be better without the possibility of alts, I do agree with you. Encouraging players to team up with other, real players is good for the game, and minimizing the need for alts should be a consideration for the continued development of the game. Everything, not just combat, should not simply scale with the number of accounts you have or it makes for a more boring game. But your enemy bringing friends will always be a very powerful strategy and from your perspective, there is little difference between the two. Regardless, alts are a legal and valid strategy in the sandbox anyway. Crying that you "aren't bad" and it's "pay-to-win" because you lose to to someone bringing more ships (alts or friends) is just burying your head in the sand.

Everyone has to lose from time-to-time, and in the sandbox sometimes you lose in situations you had little chance of winning. There is no need to take the loss so personally - there is no shame in being outmaneuvered, especially by a more powerful opponent who has all the advantages as such fight are quite common in Eve.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2015-09-08 07:29:40 UTC
Rykuss wrote:
Alts and Plex offer an advantage, period. If they didn't, no one would bother.

Sure, but the point is, does it matter in-game? For those using payed alts and expensive "gear" this may feel as pay-to-win their game, which is good as this keeps them paying, but their "win" definition is just pointless for others. Balancing the in-game sandbox with the inevitable meta game is a difficult job, done well by CCP. They would have a hard time to successfully restrict the usage of alts, better to officially charge for it and balance the game considering their usage.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Rykuss
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#75 - 2015-09-08 14:18:45 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Rykuss wrote:
Alts and Plex offer an advantage, period. If they didn't, no one would bother.

Same for blue lists, which are killing eve


Nerf the friendship!


Tipa Riot wrote:
Sure, but the point is, does it matter in-game? For those using payed alts and expensive "gear" this may feel as pay-to-win their game, which is good as this keeps them paying, but their "win" definition is just pointless for others. Balancing the in-game sandbox with the inevitable meta game is a difficult job, done well by CCP. They would have a hard time to successfully restrict the usage of alts, better to officially charge for it and balance the game considering their usage.


Well, there's that whole butterfly effect thing and the "I was there" campaign to consider. Notice I didn't say "My alt was there". You're right, of course, and I don't foresee CCP putting the cat back in the bag. A dev would need to weigh in here, to be sure, but I have to wonder why all of the restrictions placed on supers/titans were deemed necessary in the first place. It's almost as if CCP were trying to discourage their proliferation, now marginalized by parking an alt in them and logging off until needed.

Kinete Jenius wrote:
Plex killed the gold spammers and thank god for that.


Actually, I'd wager that the "report ISK spammer" feature played a larger role in that.

You, too, can be a Solid Gold dancer.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2015-09-09 04:58:12 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
You must have missed the part where I noted the difference between bringing more friends, and bringing more alts. There is a critical difference between the two which you either miss or conveniently gloss over. Having friends in an MMO is not pay to win. Having a gang composed of your own alts which are at your call 24/7, under your complete control and not subject to any of the issues arising from relationships/cooperation between human players; this converts an MMO into an RTS where you pay cash for more units and insulate yourself from one of the (allegedly) key components of an MMO - the need to cooperate with others to achieve success in most situations.

You don't draw a distinction between 10 players cooperating to achieve a goal or 1 player with 9 alts controlling them all towards the same goal, and you don't see that one of those options is obviously better for the game. At least, that is the impression I get from your comment.
No, you are missing my point. Eve is a sandbox game so bringing friends, alts, or bigger ships are perfectly valid strategies to beat your opponents in the sandbox.

You are not entitled to a fair fight in Eve. You are not entitled to "be left alone" when have your skirmish with your enemy unmolested by the other players in the sandbox. If you find yourself outclassed, there are many ways you can beat your opponents in the sandbox. You can try to trick them, change ships, ship up to a more powerful ship, or you can call in friends or log in alts - the difference is nearly immaterial from the perspective of your opponent, If you win, you are "better at Eve" because you have won that engagement while your opponent is "not as good" as you because they lost. This was your point I was addressing.

As to whether the game would be better without the possibility of alts, I do agree with you. Encouraging players to team up with other, real players is good for the game, and minimizing the need for alts should be a consideration for the continued development of the game. Everything, not just combat, should not simply scale with the number of accounts you have or it makes for a more boring game. But your enemy bringing friends will always be a very powerful strategy and from your perspective, there is little difference between the two. Regardless, alts are a legal and valid strategy in the sandbox anyway. Crying that you "aren't bad" and it's "pay-to-win" because you lose to to someone bringing more ships (alts or friends) is just burying your head in the sand.

Everyone has to lose from time-to-time, and in the sandbox sometimes you lose in situations you had little chance of winning. There is no need to take the loss so personally - there is no shame in being outmaneuvered, especially by a more powerful opponent who has all the advantages as such fight are quite common in Eve.


I have no problem losing because I was outplayed within the context of the "sandbox."

I do get annoyed when I lose because someone spends more cash on the game than me. Just like I'd be annoyed if I were playing Battlefield and EA was selling people special equipment only available as a DLC purpose. I have a fundamental dislike of in-game advantages purchased with real life cash.

I want to play against your competence within the sandbox, not your wallet outside of it. If my only option is to match your spending or avoid you, that's frankly a pretty broken situation.