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Is alt convenience worth the detriment to the game?
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Black Pedro
Mine.
#41 - 2015-09-07 08:42:04 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Telling people they're not good at the game because they didn't spend as much real world cash on alts/additional accounts as their competitor, is a fundamentally idiotic statement.

Eve isn't fair. It was designed that way so basically numbers are the prime factor determining the outcome of a fight. If I bring 10 friends and you bring 1, I will likely win. Are you "not good" at the game if you lose in that situation? In a sense yes, as I was able to outmaneuver you in the sandbox by bringing more friends, but you shouldn't take such a loss so personally.

Is that pay-to-win? I guess also in a sense as he who has the most friends/accounts has an advantage. But then by that definition the whole game is pay-to-win. The Imperium has the most players (and accounts) and their dominance in-game is a direct result of that. Because of their size, they are paying CCP the largest share of subscription revenue and these numbers give them an in-game advantage when they bring them to bear on a rival.

Winning in the sandbox is not only dependent on your ship piloting skill, your skill points, and your in game wealth. It very much depends on who you are flying with. Whether that is an alt or a friend is somewhat inconsequential - your ability to make social connections and bring multiple accounts to a situation will dictate how successful you are at it. That is just the type of game Eve is by design. Crying about losing to someone who has more support (friends or alts) isn't going to change anything - you still lost.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#42 - 2015-09-07 10:56:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Mieyli
Black Pedro wrote:

Eve isn't fair. It was designed that way so basically numbers are the prime factor determining the outcome of a fight. If I bring 10 friends and you bring 1, I will likely win. Are you "not good" at the game if you lose in that situation? In a sense yes, as I was able to outmaneuver you in the sandbox by bringing more friends, but you shouldn't take such a loss so personally.


^ this

This is the biggest problem with new players IMO, losses happen to everyone don't take it personally. Eve has a relatively low in-fight skillcap meaning that most of the "skill" is in the preparation. If you want to show your skill in eve you need to pick your fights wisely and trick your enemy into thinking he has the upper hand.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#43 - 2015-09-07 11:16:30 UTC
May Arethusa wrote:
Another thread where you rant about (stupid) reasons you don't want to fight people? Go back to HS already.




This argument wasn't a whole lot different when I was an NPC corp, it's irrelevant.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#44 - 2015-09-07 12:24:07 UTC
The only way to not have n+1 combat is to get the sand out of the sand box and add lots of stupid restrictions and mechanics on PvP interactions. n+1 combat encourages alts.

But dam it bloody hard to fly even a few ships at once esp if they are different. I was flying a tackle hauler, a falcon and a gila the other day and i derpped so bad i didn't get my kill.

And lets be honest. WoW and all their kin absolutely have alts. It is in fact very hard to prevent it. The free to play ones have crazy numbers of em.

Long story short. Single shard sandbox means alts.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2015-09-07 12:53:28 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Yang Aurilen wrote:
Hal Morsh wrote:
I just don't like competing against other players wallets. I had a mobile game for spending on, they would have some shiny goodies once in a while. I used to play something called battle nations, and spent money. Then candycrush bought them out and completely abandoned the game.


So I go to Gamelofts dungeon hunter series, and once my armor is about as high as it's going to get I spend 10$ on energy refills (yeah you use energy to play >_>) to earn enough points for an event armor, but AS IT TURNS OUT you have to at the same time compete against other peoples wallets on the leaderboard for only this event in order to upgrade the armor to any usefulness. So I may be done with that game shortly.


In EVE I am competing against multiple accounts, which is frustrating as all hell. I can say i'm glad we have plex to counter chinese isk sellers but alts are more OP than any amount of isk in the game.


TL;DR I'm a limp-wristed player that can't face REAL competition and would rather play tic-tac-toe on easy mode.


We had this argument in another thread, and I won.

Multiboxing very much meets the definition of pay to win, it has nothing to do with intelligence or skill. You are literally shelling out real world cash to buy an advantage over other players. EVE is a game which is now utterly reliant on alts and multiboxing to be competitive. Alts mitigate risk and negate mechanical consequences (see -10 ganking alts) in a whole host of ways and those advantages are obtained simply by giving CCP more cash. Your statement is accurate if reversed - people use alts to make the game LESS competitive for themselves; they are a shortcut and a substitute for actual skill, intelligence, and cooperation with other players.

Obviously, this is the way EVE is and will remain. Much of the veteran player base is dependent on alts, and as another poster noted, there are too many menial tasks which don't make sense to be performed full-time by independent human players. This fact, however, hardly renders incorrect the complementary fact that the game of alts / multiboxing arms race results in a game where player skill both at the game and at interacting with others (which should be the deciding factor in an MMO) take a secondary place to the question of how much one is willing to invest per month to bring additional "units" into the equation in the EVE meta game that sometimes seems more reminiscent of an RTS than an MMO.

Telling people they're not good at the game because they didn't spend as much real world cash on alts/additional accounts as their competitor, is a fundamentally idiotic statement.


Are you confusing me for Legatus? Because it's not my style to do ping pong ding dong arguments that create 10 pages of nothing but us talking each other down. And no I'm not telling him he's "not good" for not having alts. I'm telling him he's bad at EVE AND that other game he was playing because he can't handle real problems and would rather whine and moan about it on the forums like some entitled carebear that thinks that if he can't solve it no one can and should be nerfed.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#46 - 2015-09-07 12:59:42 UTC
I can't tell is this a grrr Russians , grrr Alts or grrr Russian alts thread?

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2015-09-07 13:06:25 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
I can't tell is this a grrr Russians , grrr Alts or grrr Russian alts thread?


It's always grr goons. You should know that by now. Miner ganked? Grr goons. Margin trading scam? Grr goons. Socket closed at that worst time? Grr goons. See a goon in system? Grr goons. See someone from Red Alliance typing stuff in cyrillic? Also grr goons. Wife left you for someone? Probably boat did it. Fired from your job? It's all The Mittani's fault!

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Vollhov
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2015-09-07 13:10:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Vollhov
Yes blame for everything Russian. Bear
But do not worry. Of us become ever less in the game.

End of Time. I'm not fanatic, I'm just a servant by Her Majesty the Empress Jamyl Sarum I. It's time to leave this world to me. YC111 to YC117.12.10 20:00
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#49 - 2015-09-07 13:12:53 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
I can't tell is this a grrr Russians , grrr Alts or grrr Russian alts thread?


P

Grr alts! Should have been enough intel from OP first encounter to maybe spring a trap of his own.

@lunettelulu7
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#50 - 2015-09-07 14:11:28 UTC
Yang Aurilen wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
I can't tell is this a grrr Russians , grrr Alts or grrr Russian alts thread?


It's always grr goons. You should know that by now. Miner ganked? Grr goons. Margin trading scam? Grr goons. Socket closed at that worst time? Grr goons. See a goon in system? Grr goons. See someone from Red Alliance typing stuff in cyrillic? Also grr goons. Wife left you for someone? Probably boat did it. Fired from your job? It's all The Mittani's fault!


That last one was probably Digi, not mittens.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#51 - 2015-09-07 16:24:59 UTC
Yang Aurilen wrote:
Wife left you for someone? Probably boat did it.

Boat is very hot, after all.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Leeluvv
United Caldari Navy
United Caldari Space Command.
#52 - 2015-09-07 18:01:54 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
...In EVE I am competing against multiple accounts, which is frustrating as all hell...


I don't understand this whine at all, you are playing a MMO against everyone that isn't on your side. If you're playing solo, then you're in the wrong game and your throwing your ego against everyone else's. Top tip: You'll lose.

Also, I have 2 accounts, one of which I haven't logged on in 2 months and I pay for both in cash; however, I farmed 1.6 Billion ISK over the weekend. Making ISK to pay for another account is no different to making ISK to buy a deadspace mod. Both give you an advantage within the rules of the game. The fact you don't like the rules isn't our or CCP's problem, it's yours. Live with it or leave, your choice.
Leeluvv
United Caldari Navy
United Caldari Space Command.
#53 - 2015-09-07 18:03:25 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
...Multiboxing very much meets the definition of pay to win...


So, playing against more than 1 account is pay to win? If it's 3 people on a LAN one day and one person multi-boxing 3 accounts the next, how does this make one pay to win and the other not?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#54 - 2015-09-07 19:53:49 UTC
Leeluvv wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
...Multiboxing very much meets the definition of pay to win...


So, playing against more than 1 account is pay to win? If it's 3 people on a LAN one day and one person multi-boxing 3 accounts the next, how does this make one pay to win and the other not?

Call it "Play to win"

(note: the win is divided among the three people)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Zihao
Doomheim
#55 - 2015-09-07 19:55:43 UTC
They're both pay-to-win and pay-to-win is fine because productive people trade their time, doing work, for money. So faulting them for wanting to convert some of that money into game fun is just the envy of players who slave away earning isk at the equivalent of a few cents an hour..

Hope that clears things up here.
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2015-09-07 20:00:32 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Think he was not in Horde when that happened.

OP, I'm not sure what the problem is here ... why bother whether the opposing side uses alts or not? A group of 5 real people should always be superior to an army of alts in a fight.
Unless they are broadcasting, perfect ranges with perfectly timed alphas and perfect logi repairs can be better from alts.

However, this is an aspect of EVE, if it is unfair, harsh then you need to find tools, ships and people to even the balance or overwhelm them in return.
I would love to see someone who can run perfect ranges, perfectly timed alphas and perfect logistics with an army of alts. Because repeaters and anything that gives a similar advantage is banned (round robin, macros, videofx,etc). So if they are pulling that stuff perfectly they are either an amazing cheater or a godlike player that would pwn you regardless of alts. I say amazing cheater because even when repeaters were allowed being that perfect was unlikely. Although one second server ticks do give you a fairly large margin of error.


What's funny is here

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3j7nso/at_least_we_know_how_many_alts_there_are/


CCP Quant posted data showing that the average eve player has 1.5 accounts.

So once again people on the forums are vastly wrong with their estimates involving the eve player base... This time on the number of alts the average eve player has. So you're looking for a problem that doesn't really exist 95% of the time.
Estevan Valladares
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#57 - 2015-09-07 21:03:21 UTC
Vollhov wrote:
Estevan Valladares wrote:
Vollhov wrote:
Angry Russian pilot Bear
Russian pilot
TwistedTwistedTwistedTwisted


One thing I could never really understand is how in EVE fiction pilots are in the ship. CCP cinematics used to show you in what gives name to the HYDROSTATIC CAPSULE (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Capsule) but at the same time, they had it shown in other cinematics the capsuleer in front of a screen seated on a chair, which is not featured in the Capitains Quarters when you see the capsule opened.

Also, they imply since day one that you are faster and more agile than regular pilots because that plugs on your back are a direct link to your nervous system to the ship you flying, which is also not shown in the regular cinematics.

Now to the point: FOR THAT REASON IS IT NEEDED TO PUT THAT HAT TO MAKE THE PILOT RUSSIAN and therefore you need him to be fully dressed and seated, or it is just plain racist ?

It's simple.
We have Russian their clones. Cloning of old drawings, which to us handed over Lord Falek. We can walk freely on the ship, drink vodka, dance with a bear and enjoy life. Bear
Sorry for my EnglishBig smile


I sense you are not russian ... lol

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul
Estevan Valladares
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#58 - 2015-09-07 21:12:16 UTC
Kinete Jenius wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Think he was not in Horde when that happened.

OP, I'm not sure what the problem is here ... why bother whether the opposing side uses alts or not? A group of 5 real people should always be superior to an army of alts in a fight.
Unless they are broadcasting, perfect ranges with perfectly timed alphas and perfect logi repairs can be better from alts.

However, this is an aspect of EVE, if it is unfair, harsh then you need to find tools, ships and people to even the balance or overwhelm them in return.
I would love to see someone who can run perfect ranges, perfectly timed alphas and perfect logistics with an army of alts. Because repeaters and anything that gives a similar advantage is banned (round robin, macros, videofx,etc). So if they are pulling that stuff perfectly they are either an amazing cheater or a godlike player that would pwn you regardless of alts. I say amazing cheater because even when repeaters were allowed being that perfect was unlikely. Although one second server ticks do give you a fairly large margin of error.


What's funny is here

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3j7nso/at_least_we_know_how_many_alts_there_are/


CCP Quant posted data showing that the average eve player has 1.5 accounts.

So once again people on the forums are vastly wrong with their estimates involving the eve player base... This time on the number of alts the average eve player has. So you're looking for a problem that doesn't really exist 95% of the time.


The average person which has never multiboxed count as impossible what is simply a matter of training. Most of the times, non-multiboxers think that multiboxers play like a lot of single players, and that is impossible. "Dont try to bend the spoon, it is impossible. Instead, try to realize the truth: There is no spoon. And you see that what bends is just yourself."

Not everyone bearing multiple accounts is a multiboxer, and not all multiboxers bear the number of accounts they use online at a given time.

Alts is one thing, multiboxing another.

What you say when you tell that multiboxing is impossible to achieve coordination and distinct inputs is the same as saying a person cannot play a accordion, or drive a car, or any other task that involves the same principle: Use one hand for one task and the other for another, without breaking timing. That is simple, and only requires focus and training.

But what really hurts is the fact that people know that THERE IS NO WAY under the sun you can prevent that in a fashionable way for your business. CCP is just clever and dont try. If they wanted, they could do it the same way they prevent you from logging two trial accounts at the same computer.

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul
Vollhov
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2015-09-07 21:16:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Vollhov
Estevan Valladares wrote:
Vollhov wrote:
Estevan Valladares wrote:
Vollhov wrote:
Angry Russian pilot Bear
Russian pilot
TwistedTwistedTwistedTwisted


One thing I could never really understand is how in EVE fiction pilots are in the ship. CCP cinematics used to show you in what gives name to the HYDROSTATIC CAPSULE (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Capsule) but at the same time, they had it shown in other cinematics the capsuleer in front of a screen seated on a chair, which is not featured in the Capitains Quarters when you see the capsule opened.

Also, they imply since day one that you are faster and more agile than regular pilots because that plugs on your back are a direct link to your nervous system to the ship you flying, which is also not shown in the regular cinematics.

Now to the point: FOR THAT REASON IS IT NEEDED TO PUT THAT HAT TO MAKE THE PILOT RUSSIAN and therefore you need him to be fully dressed and seated, or it is just plain racist ?

It's simple.
We have Russian their clones. Cloning of old drawings, which to us handed over Lord Falek. We can walk freely on the ship, drink vodka, dance with a bear and enjoy life. Bear
Sorry for my EnglishBig smile


I sense you are not russian ... lol

Yet some Russian.
I Amarr Russian Bear
I will reveal the secret how looks Russian capsuleerCool

End of Time. I'm not fanatic, I'm just a servant by Her Majesty the Empress Jamyl Sarum I. It's time to leave this world to me. YC111 to YC117.12.10 20:00
Martin Corwin
Doomheim
#60 - 2015-09-07 23:19:51 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
Leeluvv wrote:
Think of it as paid for accounts, rather than alts. Now rephrase your complaint accordingly.



pay2win and we all know plexes aren't pay to win.


Differentiating how the money is earned to pay for an account is a red herring. In which currency you are getting paid to farm ISK doesn't matter.