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Deal with RLML ?
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Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-09-05 20:03:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Triakis Cadelanne
Hello,

Is there a plan to deal about RLM or something ? This thing is hell damn toxic. It unleash a standard weapons cruiser DPS with perfect damage application to almost anything. The reload time doesn't matter that much since 20 charges are enough to crush any fast and low tank ship. If it's not fast and low tank you don't care as you just keep pulling range while reloading, or just warp out.

It's even more cancer when you see that half of cruiser sized ships these days are Caracal, Scythe FI or Orthrus.

I'm just looking for something able to deal with RLM without being 1200 m/s under MWD and getting blobbed.
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#2 - 2015-09-05 21:14:46 UTC
You know I think you maybe the first person I've encountered on the forums who thinks RLMLs weren't nerfed hard enough.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-09-05 21:19:54 UTC
Samillian wrote:
You know I think you maybe the first person I've encountered on the forums who thinks RLMLs weren't nerfed hard enough.


Maybe, as far as I know they are still overused at least in small fleets, over any other type of medium missile launchers.
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
#4 - 2015-09-05 21:56:43 UTC
Rapid lights are a very good small ship killing weapon. That being said, they aren't the perfect weapon system by any means. They have a very long reload time, for example. If they can't break your tank before they hit a reload cycle they are sunk. The burst DPS they offer is amazing, and the potential ability to spit any damage type is also fantastic. Small ships need to be scared of RLML, and that is exactly the point. In bigger fights where busting through enemy logi is key to success then the strength of the RLML wanes a little as it requires the entire fleet to be fairly well time in when they start to fire and who they fire at. If they can't apply their burst DPS fast enough and the enemy logi begin to apply reps then they could well be sunk.

In short, don't fight a RLML ships in a dessy or frig and you'll probably do pretty darn well.

Hell use a t3d, hope the Caracal loaded fury ammo and laugh as his RLML struggle to apply damage to your cruiser sized tank and destroyer sized sig.

Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-09-05 22:07:29 UTC
Actually I can't fly T1 kiting cruisers against RLML which is 100% frustrating because as you said RLML is designed to kill frigates and destroyers, but is also very good against other cruisers.
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#6 - 2015-09-06 05:10:15 UTC
Quote:
It's even more cancer when you see that half of cruiser sized ships these days are Caracal, Scythe FI or Orthrus.


Quote:
as far as I know they are still overused at least in small fleets


Make up your mind, either they're definitely cancerous or they might possibly be used quite a bit in specific situations, but you're not terribly sure about that either.

RLML are fine, they do mediocre DPS for 10-15 seconds, and then sod all for 35. Deal with it.
Silverbackyererse
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-09-06 05:32:14 UTC
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:
Samillian wrote:
You know I think you maybe the first person I've encountered on the forums who thinks RLMLs weren't nerfed hard enough.


Maybe, as far as I know they are still overused at least in small fleets, over any other type of medium missile launchers.



That's because the other medium sized launcher weapons suck donkey balls.

I've seen frigates tank an entire clip of RLML from the hulls you mention comfortably. Perhaps you are just bad at choosing an appropriate ship to engage RLML ships in?
C11H17NO3
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
#8 - 2015-09-06 14:53:57 UTC
as others have already stated rlm have been nerfed enough

the only thing they are good at killing are extremely poorly tanked and piloted crusiers, dessies and frigs.

and I MEAN EXTREMELY POORLY tanked cruisers..

vs anything competently fitted and piloted they are quite crap, especially if you are shooting the wrong resist hole or they are abing..
Burtakus
Lone W0lf Society
#9 - 2015-09-06 19:31:47 UTC
RLML pretty much suck balls unless as stated you are shooting poorly tanked/poorly piloted dessies and frigs. Other than trying to kill frigs I have not found a viable use for this weapons system.
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#10 - 2015-09-07 01:16:15 UTC
All people saying rlml arent the cancer appearently havent fought a cerb or orthrus yet. Especially in case of the orthrus you take 500 dps perfectly applied to ships in the same size for 20 shots. This results in having to tank roughly 30-40k burst damage. The next weapon which comes close in application and damage potential to same ship size are literally doomsdays on titans.
Also no frig can tank them except with warfare links, which previously was quite doable if you fitted a slightly stronger active tank.

RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#11 - 2015-09-07 06:36:38 UTC  |  Edited by: IbanezLaney
Don't listen to these trolls OP.

I also think CCP should nerf everything I have lost to when I take a fight in the wrong/poorly fit ship.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#12 - 2015-09-07 06:43:28 UTC
Silverbackyererse wrote:
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:
Samillian wrote:
You know I think you maybe the first person I've encountered on the forums who thinks RLMLs weren't nerfed hard enough.


Maybe, as far as I know they are still overused at least in small fleets, over any other type of medium missile launchers.



That's because the other medium sized launcher weapons suck donkey balls.

I've seen frigates tank an entire clip of RLML from the hulls you mention comfortably. Perhaps you are just bad at choosing an appropriate ship to engage RLML ships in?


I'm really curious as to what frigate 'tanks an entire clip of RLML comfortably' coming from an Orthrus.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2015-09-07 10:40:02 UTC
I don't think the problem with the orthrus is the fact it can fit RLMLs

Art of Explosions
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-09-07 12:52:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Triakis Cadelanne
Dato Koppla wrote:


I'm really curious as to what frigate 'tanks an entire clip of RLML comfortably' coming from an Orthrus.



Linked and snaked interceptor can do this. A linked, snaked and pimped letto can reach 12 km/s, you simply outrun missiles. Even without this with a ceptor going 6 - 7 km/s you're still tanking fairly well given your high speed and very small sig radius.

But when you're flying an AS (lol) or a T3D RLML shrek you. Ofc it's normal, it's what it's designed to do. Svipul able to tank an Orthrus are pimped, linked and crystaled, otherwise they just can't tank the whole clip without dying.

It's wrong when it come to cruisers. For those who think RLML suck balls against anything else than frigates :

The classic nano Cynabal has 2 LSE, an invul, a DCU and 3 T2 shield rigs. Unlinked, it's 46k EHP with an EM resist hole, or 44k EHP without deep resist hole (depending on your rigs).

Now a well skilled Orthrus will perfectly apply 40k EM damage on this Cynabal before his clip is empty. It roughly means the Cynabal will be left with a burning hull at the end of the clip, unable to fight (or to survive anything for instance). And then RLML is called an "anti frigate" weapon.

And I'm not even talking about fun our of the box stuff like nano Deimos, that are dead and gone since there's now one or more RLML shield in any fleet.
Svetlana Laknaya
Khushakor Clan
#15 - 2015-09-07 15:43:57 UTC
The reason RLML is used so often on Missile ships has less to do with RLML being OP, and more to do with a few other things:

1. Heavy Missiles aren't very strong.
2. Heavy assault missiles aren't good at fighting small ships.
3. Small ships are immensely more powerful in the small gang meta currently than larger ones, meaning that fighting down is far more important than fighting other med sized ships. T3Ds have a fairly low entry skill and cost, and the only real counter cruisers have to their low sig and high speed, along with good damage, is RLML, drones and nuets.

Light missiles are in a good place right now, they don't need to be changed IMO. If anything HLM and HAM need a buff.
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#16 - 2015-09-07 18:46:40 UTC
Quote:
The classic nano Cynabal has 2 LSE, an invul, a DCU and 3 T2 shield rigs. Unlinked, it's 46k EHP with an EM resist hole, or 44k EHP without deep resist hole (depending on your rigs).

Now a well skilled Orthrus will perfectly apply 40k EM damage on this Cynabal before his clip is empty. It roughly means the Cynabal will be left with a burning hull at the end of the clip, unable to fight (or to survive anything for instance). And then RLML is called an "anti frigate" weapon.


So why don't you provide two scenarios, and use the worst one to illustrate your poi... oh wait, you did that already. Also, why don't you ignore those resists when you're talking about perfect damage applica... nevermind, you've got that covered too.

What actually happens here, in the "real world", is that the Cynabal plugs its EM hole and survives a clip of missiles from the Orthrus with shield to spare. Which gives him 35 seconds to kill or evade his opponent, during which time the Orthrus can do bugger all but keep praying it doesn't die before it can reload and finish the job.

All of the above is of course assuming the Orthrus pilot had the right ammo loaded when they began the fight, which would have been Kinetic or Thermal anyway depending on the Cynabal's third rig.
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-09-07 19:46:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Triakis Cadelanne
May Arethusa wrote:
Quote:
The classic nano Cynabal has 2 LSE, an invul, a DCU and 3 T2 shield rigs. Unlinked, it's 46k EHP with an EM resist hole, or 44k EHP without deep resist hole (depending on your rigs).

Now a well skilled Orthrus will perfectly apply 40k EM damage on this Cynabal before his clip is empty. It roughly means the Cynabal will be left with a burning hull at the end of the clip, unable to fight (or to survive anything for instance). And then RLML is called an "anti frigate" weapon.


So why don't you provide two scenarios, and use the worst one to illustrate your poi... oh wait, you did that already. Also, why don't you ignore those resists when you're talking about perfect damage applica... nevermind, you've got that covered too.

What actually happens here, in the "real world", is that the Cynabal plugs its EM hole and survives a clip of missiles from the Orthrus with shield to spare. Which gives him 35 seconds to kill or evade his opponent, during which time the Orthrus can do bugger all but keep praying it doesn't die before it can reload and finish the job.

All of the above is of course assuming the Orthrus pilot had the right ammo loaded when they began the fight, which would have been Kinetic or Thermal anyway depending on the Cynabal's third rig.


Ok so if you read carefully my previous message you'll see that I've mentioned EHP and not raw HPs. In case you didn't know EHP take account of resistance (that's even the point of the whole thing). And perfect damage application, in the world of EVE, states that DPS / volley damage isn't reduced in any way by sig tanking. Damage application has nothing to do with resistance.

Furthermore, I took favorable scenario for the nano Cynabal. Again read carefully and you'll see that the Cyna I mentioned used his 3 spare med slots for tank (when some fit a web which is far to be irrelevent) and has a DCU in low (which again can be dropped for an extra nano, TE or DPS).

Again, read carefully and you'll see that I've stated the Cynabal to have 44k EHP with EM hole plugged. Now open your EFT and you'll see this Cynabal better pray the Orhtrus to shoot EM rathen than Therm.

So, if you want me to take the worst scene possible for the Cynabal, let's say the Orthrus already got Thermal damage loaded (I assuming nobody is going to chase a nano T1 / faction ship with kin or explo loaded).

Cynabal got 38k EHP vs Thermal damage. The Orthrus has 20 volleys, for a whole clip dealing 40k thermal damage. Orthrus will apply perfectly on the Cynabal, no matter what he's doing (MWD on, off, moving or not). No, a Cynabal won't survive a full clip with shield to spare. It'll die or survive with damaged hull if the Orthrus was shooting EM.

Now if the Cynabal isn't this tanky variation it'll die whatever the Orthrus is shooting. There's no way a classic Cynabal will tank a well skilled Orthrus clip "with shield to spare".

Is an anti-frig weapon able to kill an average-tanked nano cruiser in one clip OP ? Imo, yes.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#18 - 2015-09-08 15:47:57 UTC
All I'm hearing is, "WAHHHH! A Orthrus killed my Cynabal! WAAAHHH! It's OP!"
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-09-08 15:59:45 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
All I'm hearing is, "WAHHHH! A Orthrus killed my Cynabal! WAAAHHH! It's OP!"


Never flyed a Cynabal. Cheers :)
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#20 - 2015-09-08 18:18:24 UTC
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
All I'm hearing is, "WAHHHH! A Orthrus killed my Cynabal! WAAAHHH! It's OP!"


Never flyed a Cynabal. Cheers :)


So your example above is not from experience, but a theoretical based on EFT?

How about you go and actually fly a Cynabal against an Orthrus and come back with better informed perspective.
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