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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1421 - 2015-09-05 17:19:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
babyblue wrote:
I'm kind-of surprised you don't think the drop in player count is relevant or in any way a reflection of the available content.
The reasons for that surprise is because it's yet another thing you've fabricated out of nothing, same as, oh, pretty much everything else you've said so far.

Quote:
What you seem to be saying then, is that Eve has reached its potential and that the community is in rude health relative to that.
…such as this, seeing as I haven't said anything that even remotely suggests this.

Quote:
Well that was my point right at the start. The game engine doesn't support the kind-of gameplay that would be necessary to break past that.
As demonstrated, your point was incorrect from the very start and only hints at a fundamental ignorance about the game and its engine — past, present, and future.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1422 - 2015-09-05 17:23:12 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
1) Would they also accept more interaction/competition/cooperation/conflict with other players in those improved forms of PvE?
If the PvE was both entertaining and worthwhile, and not just a way for them to be baited into a turkey shoot, yes.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
2) PvE activities have universally turned into farmville/boredom. Is not the missing element player intervention, rather than "improving" PvE for its own sake st its exclusion?
There's nothing wrong with players farming PvE, that's pretty much what it's in games for and why it's generally repeatable. The problem comes when like missions, the way to make the most is to skip over the content, and when there's so little variety that everyone's pretty much doing the same thing.

Most PvE heavy MMOs you will see people all over, farming different things in different ways, and if one gets too overpowered it gets balanced. In EVE there's a limited choice and the choice is usually around how much active clicking time you want rather than entertainment preference.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1423 - 2015-09-05 17:31:49 UTC
Wierd posts above. My favorite is that "eve has reached its potential" bit.

*Insert laughter here

It is potential that keeps it up. But what is there beyond potential? I think biggest lack is objectives. Most every MMO or pvp has twp types. Arena style like FPS have rankings. People want to be elo diamond or whatever. Eve is less contextual, notoriety. We can name alliances famous for various things and of course famous individuals. But what about MMO?

I think back to when my play slowed down. Simply put, more interesting games to load up with objectives. Wanted to get such and such done on my city/prison games. Wanted to clear and progress to next level.

Why are the RP groups and live events such big attractions that even when random and without warning rival the largest pvp CTA? Simple. There is an engaging progression. The Sansha live events really grew the player base. THAT did more than the actual incursions themselves. Dynamics is key. Less rock paper scissors, more longterm and unpredicted pve. WoW is huge because a regular player takes months and months for one character, then does it again on the next. We do the same by our skills.

For now, we should just forget other numbers. We make an awesome niche game, and go from there.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

babyblue
Solo Sovereignty
#1424 - 2015-09-05 17:33:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
As demonstrated, your point was incorrect from the very start and only hints at a fundamental ignorance about the game and its engine — past, present, and future.


From what I've read about what you're saying, the idea seems to be to contradict whatever anyone else is saying without actually saying anything yourself. With respect to engine capabilities, I'm not on the CCP dev team but I am a dev and I've worked for various game studios in the past, so I'm not entirely without knowledge in this area.

Shooting icons in space has been a staple of this engine since it was first implemented in beta 6. I don't think anything has really changed since then.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1425 - 2015-09-05 17:35:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Tippia wrote:
It's not a huge assumption that the expansion that marked the start of a drastic downturn marked the start of a drastic downturn. If you want to use the standard “correlation does not imply causation”, then that's fine, but if you're going to dismiss the reasoning I've provided, you still need to present some reasons why the connections I've made can't possibly be right and offer some coherent and plausible ones of your own — you haven't even touched the former, and offered nothing of the latter.
I'm not saying it can;t possibly right, I'm simply saying that it's a huge assumption, and makes very little sense that the entire game would fall into dying mode because of the introduction of Incursions, content which is generally regarded as somewhere between "meh" and "OK" with a single problem of multibox farming in highsec which is limited in effect.

As for reasons, Like I say, it was an 8 year old game. I'd be surprised if it hadn't started to decline by that point.

Tippia wrote:
…and that's exactly what you saw: a huge peak, and then a constant up-surge throughout the rest of spring, summer, and even fall. You can try to ignore it as much as you like, but that's what actually happened. Oh, and it does indeed show up on eve-offline. Apocrypha was fairly special; Incursion was special too, but in the opposite way.
I don't know what graph you are looking at, but on both the one you linked and eve-offline averages go flat around the release of Apocrypha, with a drop around the unholy rage.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1426 - 2015-09-05 17:36:37 UTC
babyblue wrote:
From what I've read about what you're saying, the idea seems to be to contradict whatever anyone else is saying without actually saying anything yourself.
You know that thing I said about you fabricating stuff out of nothing? Yeah, that, again.

Quote:
With respect to engine capabilities, I'm not on the CCP dev team but I am a dev and I've worked for various game studios in the past, so I'm not entirely without knowledge in this area.
So how do you explain being so pitifully wrong about the capability of the engine?

Quote:
I don't think anything has really changed since then.
Have you tried logging in any time in the last 12 years?
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1427 - 2015-09-05 17:52:22 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

As for reasons, Like I say, it was an 8 year old game. I'd be surprised if it hadn't started to decline by that point.


Funny thing... Eve has never been a front runner. It is like an alpha stage game. Mechanics, but not fleshed out. This does not mean scripted content, just more complexity to create variability in play. Predictability is the killer. Eve wants to take off? Well majority of potential players have never actually played eve. What is needed is essentially eve 2. Take all that is here and reduce it to the core mechanics and restart. Delete all current missions and anything pre scripted. **** on the pvp meta and revamp all modules etc so rock paper scissors isnt predictable. Every hull should have like five different meta fits minimum so more than one person required to run a fleet.

Get that working so every time you log off, a person wants to log back in and continue, not rince and repeat.

Sov really needed to have development mechanics so they literally feel like a piece of empire.

All things that CCP said is in progress. Will be good times ahead if done right.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1428 - 2015-09-05 17:53:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lucas Kell wrote:
I'm not saying it can;t possibly right, I'm simply saying that it's a huge assumption, and makes very little sense that the entire game would fall into dying mode because of the introduction of Incursions
…but then again, that's not what I said, now is it? What I said is that, by replicating a type of content often seen in other games, Incursion was the first instance of EVE exhibiting the kind of boom-bust population cycle we see in those games. In other words, it did not create anything in the way of retention — quite the opposite.

Now, I'll give you this one: the sharp downturn that happened afterwards may indeed be connected to Incarna, but only in the sense that we were in the middle of the :18 months:. By this I mean that it was not caused by the Incarna expansion, but with the general neglect that FIS had suffered for a year. What Incursion did, then, was to raise a slim hope for players that there might be something to stick around for, but once released, it failed to retain these players.

That was kind of the whole point I was getting at: it was “improved PvE”, and yet it did not provide any player retention. It may have brought some in, but it failed to give them a reason to keep playing. It also failed to give existing players a reason to keep playing. As far as retention goes, that's top marks in the failure department.

The 8 year-old game reason, like I said, that rather goes out the window when you consider that it actually continued to grow after that. If you want to use it for what happened after the 10-year anniversary, you might have some point; for the 8-year mark, less so.

Quote:
I don;t know what graph you are looking at, but on both the one you linked and eve-offline averages go flat around the release of Apocrypha, with a drop around the unholy rage.

That has to be one of the worst graphs I've ever witnessed. Lol

I'm mainly looking at mine, because it provides rolling averages and filters out the noise that is generated by the weekly cycle. It also doesn't hide the period of API errors for which there is no useful data. If you adjust the summer line for the 4–5,000 drop in average users caused by the removal of 4–5,000 23/7-bots, what you'll see is the regular — quite small — patch week bump, with a huge patch-weekend peak. Then there's a break in the data, which I'll agree offers plenty of room for guesswork and speculation, but the before and after is still trending upwards. Then there's the summer, which trends upwards — bot adjustment aside. Then there's the autumn, which trends upwards, on a similar slope to what went on during the summer. Then there's a slight pause, and a huge jump as Dominion hits.
Salvos Rhoska
#1429 - 2015-09-05 18:04:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lucas Kell wrote:
...


Good!

So we agree any and all PvE improvements should integrally include player interaction and competition.

Thanks for confirming that.

You seemingly ignored my call to a voice chat, but since we agree on the point above, its no longer necessary.

Any and all PvE improvements should carry a player competetive element.
Fine by me.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1430 - 2015-09-05 18:21:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…but then again, that's not what I said, now is it? What I said is that, by replicating a type of content often seen in other games, Incursion was the first instance of EVE exhibiting the kind of boom-bust population cycle we see in those games. In other words, it did not create anything in the way of retention — quite the opposite.
And I disagree. So let's agree to disagree.

Tippia wrote:
That has to be one of the worst graphs I've ever witnessed. Lol
Tell Chribba that. It's a graph of the figures provided by CCP and it's pretty clear what it shows.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
So we agree any and all PvE improvements should integrally include player interaction and competition.
Of course, it's an MMO. The defining feature being other players existence.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
You seemingly ignored my call to a voice chat, but since we agree on the point above, its no longer necessary.
I didn't even see you offer it up as I only skim your posts since I won't live forever. Either way though I have no interest in joining a voice chat with anyone from this forum. If you need to hear my sexy voice you'll have to join my alliance and go on an op.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Amber Starview
Doomheim
#1431 - 2015-09-05 18:21:14 UTC
I enjoy pve - call me crazy but it is fun and suits the hours I can play ,I have done 0.0 and low sec and wormhole both solo and fleeted and all can be really good fun but also have boring patches ...
Just wanted to add this as many people dismiss it as lame or not what eve is about and all I can say is that's your opinion not mine .
Forcing pvp or any play style is wrong because all u do is force that player to play something else .
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1432 - 2015-09-05 19:05:55 UTC
Amber Starview wrote:
I enjoy pve - call me crazy but it is fun and suits the hours I can play ,I have done 0.0 and low sec and wormhole both solo and fleeted and all can be really good fun but also have boring patches ...
Just wanted to add this as many people dismiss it as lame or not what eve is about and all I can say is that's your opinion not mine .
Forcing pvp or any play style is wrong because all u do is force that player to play something else .


Not crazy and that style has been a key driving force in this threadnaught. Get the whines out of the way and the gaming community of eve acuallt understands the importance of pve in Eve, but we also agree that the pve needs to be done different to maintain the attractive features, bur be an inclusive, not exclusive playstyle.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Salvos Rhoska
#1433 - 2015-09-05 19:12:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lucas Kell wrote:
I didn't even see you offer it up


So you don't even read what's addressed to you.

That explains a great deal.

As to your refusal to voice chat, well, I understand.
You don't want anyone to hear your juvenile screeching.

I offered. You chickened out. Nuff said.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
So we agree any and all PvE improvements should integrally include player interaction and competition.
Of course, it's an MMO. The defining feature being other players existence.

Fine backpedalling from your initial position of.

Thanks for again conceding.
Estevan Valladares
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1434 - 2015-09-05 19:35:55 UTC
When you deal with finance, politics and Information technology, and as a developer in e-Governemnt I deal with all of them, you learn something called Logic Operators. AND, OR, XOR, and some more.

It is indiferent to me if what someone says is true or not, it is a matter of what can be and what cant be, what it is and what it is not.

While your toon has a birthdate which is a solid information, it can or cannot be yours and there is no way to prove it, I choose therefore to ignore that information which I have no way to access and you have no way to back.

While the previous is true, it is also true that your toon was created, remained in a NPC corp for long time, and then joined a rookie corp in terms of EVE history, which bears other toons that are as reasonably assumed bought as your own. This is also more likely by the fact the things you say differ from ALL people who have been playing EVE for a long time, by what they say and can be attested as being accurate.

Therefore, I dont care if the toon is yours, if you played, bought or just started playing, stopped and came back. Your assertions of authority by experience are as void as any I could make myself in this alt.

The same logic I use to see that you are in fact full of it and trying to use pity argument when your sympathy argument failed miserably, and now you are trying to imply an authority argument over an issue that shows you have none.

It is that simple, but I liked the time I was really seemingly considering what you say, for the sake of saying what I wanted. Now I have nothing I want to say left, and thus, I will just ignore you as I would if you havent brought up issues I have had liked to talk about.

Thank you very much. Fly safe !

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1435 - 2015-09-05 20:02:11 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
So you don't even read what's addressed to you.
Not if it's got your name on it, no.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I offered. You chickened out. Nuff said.
If that's what you really need to think to be able to get through your day, sure.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Fine backpedalling from your initial position of.

Thanks for again conceding.
My initial position of... what?

My opinion has never been any different. At no point have I suggested that any mechanic should be put in with zero interaction with other players.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Salvos Rhoska
#1436 - 2015-09-05 20:28:44 UTC
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1437 - 2015-09-05 20:44:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kinete Jenius wrote:
What are you even referring to in specific?

Incursions. They created a very commonplace “new raids expansion”-bump and drop-off in the server activity. Everyone was excited for the new content, but after two months, when everything had been figure out, the server activity started to drop sharply and only stopped dropped even sharper once the next expansion — Incarna — was released.

Before that, we had often seen a bit of a lull at the end of winter and through spring; this wasn't a lull but a definite decline. Given the similarity of the actual content, it can probably be compared to Apocrypha, where there was an absolutely huge spike in activity, and then the average numbers kept going up.

Yeah the "summer of rage" over the internal greed is good memo and all the other stuff surely had nothing to do with the number drop during Incarna (which came months after the 3rd and last incursion release patch). Nope the problem clearly was only that damned PVE you want nerfed/removed so badly.

How convenient....

For having been killed by a PVE expansion eve had awesome numbers on average till 2014. Must of been a stealth delayed killer patch to take 4 years to cause a real drop in eve player numbers.


I could also match up the drops to the releases of popular games that were free or highly popular but that clearly couldn't have any effect right?
Adamai
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1438 - 2015-09-05 20:49:24 UTC
the problem you have is all the reasons we play eve has been taken by the huge power blocks!!!! now this is not a whine but more of a ! ummm hello ccp are you aware the game is playable to people if they join one of the power blocks.. does this mean anything to you!!! ???? type things..

well what it means to me as a old ceo who gave up on eve for the reasons im about to explain! is that there is no point in buil;ding a corporation of alliance in eve because its impossible to challange any one for space.. and if by any miracle you manage to seize space the nearest major power block takes it from you! and there is nothing you can do about it.. some people will say use diplomacy!!! talk your self a better deal!!! i say thats not good enough.. why should i pay tribute to a null sec coalition in order to use null sec space!!! i might as well remain in empire under no ones rules or laws and make more money and do my own thing with only game mechanics as my restriction!

now you should be starting to get some idea why your game population is dwindling.. when i first started playing eve in 2007 the max online i saw was around 65k!!! thats pretty awesome.. but now im seeing at peak times between 30-40k it seems to me all the players in the same boat as i am have just quit playing eve!

so to fix this i have come up with some options!

1 add more empty null space than can ever be occupied! cause lets face it.. the fact that eve space is limited is just silly as space is vast! and the game could represent it far better..
2 remove the option for large power blocks to just wade on through and take your space away.. no i dont mean make them earn it.. i mean make it so they can not take it.. an idea for how this might be done would be an alliance ranking system.. when an alliance achieves a certain rank. it can be invaded once a month one system at a time. this gives the defenders time to bolster the targeted systems or neighbouring systems and the time to seek diplomatic solutions more favourable to them selves that does not envolve selling their souls to the 20k member alliance and their allies trying to crush you... when i started playing eve online capital ships were not that common.. a large encounter would be something like 20 caps each side max! and that at the time was a big deal.. but today an alliance can put hundreds of them on the battle field!!! do you realise what this does to your game.. well im going to tell you anyway because i dont think you do realize.. it makes the game noncompetitive to other smaller alliances and corporations.. and it traps them in low sec and empire space with no real aspirations to live in null sec. eventually these corps and alliances grow tired of empire and low sec and simply stop logging in! and essentially move to other games.. because null sec is a wash with tyrants that control everything..

its easy to see.. the sheer fact they rent space is an obvious indication of this problem. ive lived in null ive fought and died to keep our **** hole for our selves and we did it pretty well against mostly harmless and guardian federation!! but as ive said above.. the large power blocks call the shots and when they spoke we had to leave! it should not be this way.. there is no point in fighting or trying to defend as they just steam roll you away..

the current revamps to sov space solves nothing it just delays the inevitable.. the nerf to jump drives has made it harder for small alliances to run away with some of their assets and earnings.. i understand the game needs an isk sink but for the love of god!! stop hitting the little guys. !!! they stop playing. !!!! and they dont come back!!! this is not them being little whiny bitches !! this is them getting fed up of being bullied by massive organisations and coalitions.. and thats because most players in eve hate the grind and the hard work reaching the tp of the food chain so they ride some one elses train!! and get their sooner than they should.. the result is coalitions and alliances like goon swarm and the nothern coalition with vast amounts of man power... eve should not be a game about 2-3 factions.. that are always in the head lines .. come on open your eyes..!!! the little guys are basically ignored, they dont matter and no one cares if they quit or not. they dont quit cause the game is hard they quit because they can not compete with things the way they are. a new system is needed to make sov holding better for the little guys. renting space is a joke and a scam.. " **** we cant really afford to fuel pos towers and sov claim node thingies in all those worthless null sec systems.. !! i guess we better rent them to noobs and tiny alliances who will secure them for us and pay tribute cause lets face it!! there is no way on this earth they are having them any other way."

lol its sad that cpp does not see this problem.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1439 - 2015-09-05 22:51:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Adamai wrote:
are you aware the game is playable to people if they join one of the power blocks

I'm glad to know it's playable... I mean the highsec lifestyle or the moa interceptor gang are both great as well but yeah

I definitely love my life as a block

Adamai wrote:
stop hitting the little guys. !!! they stop playing. !!!! and they dont come back!!! this is not them being little whiny bitches !!

Perhaps they should learn from moa...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Zozoll Neblyn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1440 - 2015-09-06 03:31:01 UTC
Adamai wrote:
the problem you have is all the reasons we play eve has been taken by the huge power blocks!!!! now this is not a whine but more of a ! ummm hello ccp are you aware the game is playable to people if they join one of the power blocks.. does this mean anything to you!!! ???? type things..

well what it means to me as a old ceo who gave up on eve for the reasons im about to explain! is that there is no point in buil;ding a corporation of alliance in eve because its impossible to challange any one for space.. and if by any miracle you manage to seize space the nearest major power block takes it from you! and there is nothing you can do about it.. some people will say use diplomacy!!! talk your self a better deal!!! i say thats not good enough.. why should i pay tribute to a null sec coalition in order to use null sec space!!! i might as well remain in empire under no ones rules or laws and make more money and do my own thing with only game mechanics as my restriction!


The game mechanics are set up so that numbers = victory. The only way to unseat one of the blocks would be the build a bigger block and.... that would require more players than currently exist.

In real life, big powerful alliances can be divided and conquered. You can turn members of a nation against other members of the same nation.

The Mafia, for example, actually allows gangs inside their organization to declare war on each other, and kill each other's members, but still remain in good standing with the high level Mafia leadership. It's not "awoxing" when they do that. The gangs declare war on each other formally. But they remain part of the mafia even so.

Medieval France would look the same way. Two powerful lords might square off and have their knights kill one another in a land dispute, even though both lords pay tribute to the king of France and are both considered loyal.


But the game mechanics of Eve only allow simple diplomacy.