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Matari: To See a Republic
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Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#81 - 2015-09-04 18:06:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Arrendis wrote:
You know, as a Sebiestor entrepreneur - especially one who based out of Inoue for a long time - I actually tend to like the State more than the Federation. The State's honest in their avarice, and there's a kind of respect for others in that lack of deception.

With that in mind, I have to wonder how much the Federation pays you to run around as a one-woman false flag operation aimed at making everyone despise the State. What's the going rate these days?


You are not the first person to ask that. In the past I have generally accepted that she is honest but misguided, but lately I've begun to wonder.

As a Caldari I do appreciate the Matari acceptance of our desire to put our own kin first in all we do. Enlightened self-interest gets a very bad reputation in certain parts of the cluster, whilst I've found that it is a generally reliable motivator that can lead to happy outcomes for both bargainers.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2015-09-05 09:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Ayallah wrote:


Elmund Egivand wrote:
I also have doubts about exactly how much power the Tribal Council has, and whether they are leading the people of the Republic or led by the popular opinions of the Republic people, however ill-advised it might be.


They have absolute power except when it comes to matters of a single Tribe and then the Chief of that Tribe has absolute authority. Each Chief rules their Tribe differently.

The Republic is not a democracy in any way, it has far more in common with the meritocracies of the state or nullsec groups at a micro level and a resemblance to the more authoritarian Empire at the high levels of government.

Professor Gilles Horolosios of Caille University echoed the views of many Gallente political commentators, saying "The Tribal Assembly has switched off the life-support machine that was keeping the dying body of democracy in the Minmatar Republic alive."

To quote the article linked above and the opinions of the Gallente who solely study democracy.


It seems you misunderstand what I said. My statement has nothing to do with democracy at all. I am questioning the decision-making processes being made in the Republic.

I suggest looking back at the Colelie incident, and the events that led to it. We are already aware that there was a mass public outrage about Gerne Broteau's mass killings of the Minmatar population, especially the slaying of the late Karin Midular. We also know that the Republic fleet sent a task force into Federation space to snatch the mass-killer from the clutches of the Federation, a move that resulted in the destruction of 15 Naglfar-class dreadnaughts.

Here are the questions I will pose.

Without the benefit of hindsight, is the sending of these dreadnaughts to retrieve this criminal, who would be met with justice anyway, a good move?

What do we stand to gain and what do we stand to lose from all these? Are the losses worth the gain.

Who made this decision? Was it the Republic Fleet Command, or at least elements within it, or was it the Tribal Assembly?

If it was the Republic Fleet Command, then can we say they are moving under the auspice of the Tribal Assembly? If the Tribal Assembly did not give the Republic Fleet Command this order, then what kind of power does the Tribal Assembly have over the Republic Fleet Command?

If this was the decision of the Tribal Assembly, then did they really make this decision for rational and pragmatic reasons, or were they swept by the tide of public outrage? Or perhaps, the decision was made due to their own outrage?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#83 - 2015-09-05 10:33:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Without the benefit of hindsight, is the sending of these dreadnaughts to retrieve this criminal, who would be met with justice anyway, a good move?


Yes.

Quote:

What do we stand to gain and what do we stand to lose from all these? Are the losses worth the gain.


We gain justice for our own dead, instead of being weak children reliant upon the patronage of the 'grown-up' nations of the Cluster to say what's best for us and what's not.

And we lose a bit of innocence, perhaps, but such is the price of adulthood.

Quote:

If this was the decision of the Tribal Assembly, then did they really make this decision for rational and pragmatic reasons, or were they swept by the tide of public outrage? Or perhaps, the decision was made due to their own outrage?


The Tribal Assembly is the will and wisdom of the people. Not in the sense of a democratic body, or representatives... but they are of the Tribes, and their positions command the assent of their Tribe. There is no difference between 'public outrage' and 'their own outrage'. And if you do not think that outrage at those events was an eminently pragmatic response, then I'd wonder if you've spent too much time among the anarchists.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2015-09-05 12:24:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Arrendis wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Without the benefit of hindsight, is the sending of these dreadnaughts to retrieve this criminal, who would be met with justice anyway, a good move?


Yes.

Quote:

What do we stand to gain and what do we stand to lose from all these? Are the losses worth the gain.


We gain justice for our own dead, instead of being weak children reliant upon the patronage of the 'grown-up' nations of the Cluster to say what's best for us and what's not.

And we lose a bit of innocence, perhaps, but such is the price of adulthood.

Quote:

If this was the decision of the Tribal Assembly, then did they really make this decision for rational and pragmatic reasons, or were they swept by the tide of public outrage? Or perhaps, the decision was made due to their own outrage?


The Tribal Assembly is the will and wisdom of the people. Not in the sense of a democratic body, or representatives... but they are of the Tribes, and their positions command the assent of their Tribe. There is no difference between 'public outrage' and 'their own outrage'. And if you do not think that outrage at those events was an eminently pragmatic response, then I'd wonder if you've spent too much time among the anarchists.


And this is exactly why I'm wary of the Republic.

First and foremost, for the sake of persecuting one man, whom the Federation wants to punish harshly regardless, the Republic risks, at best, breaking an alliance with a powerful nation and, at worst, provoke them into making war with the Republic. Remember that this is the same Federation that had, at one point, decided that the appropriate action against a terrorist attack was to launch a war of extermination.

Tell me, what part of this is logical? From where I am standing, the actions of the Republic was more driven by fiery emotions and passions rather than any conclusion derived from a serious consideration of gain/loss. The Republic risks shooting herself in the foot for the sake of outage and pride! A nation that is driven by passionate and emotion-driven decision making is standing on very shaky ground, and I fail to see how the Minmatar people can stand to benefit from such leadership.

The Republic was most fortunate that at the time the Federation wasn't deep within the clutches of the U-Nats and we hadn't quite pissed their people off enough for them to elect U-Nats in their last election and that they had their own problems, that being the Titan hovering over Caldari Prime. Had the timing been just a bit off, had the Colelie incident happen about two or so months later, the results could be very different.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation
#85 - 2015-09-05 12:27:45 UTC
I am Brutor by blood, but Caldari by spirit.

I am no Republican, and quite truthfully, would never wish to be.

Cold Wind's Blade || Follow the I-RED Newsfeed & visit the I-RED GalNet site!
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#86 - 2015-09-05 17:27:56 UTC
Korsavius wrote:
I am Brutor by blood, but Caldari by spirit.

I am no Republican, and quite truthfully, would never wish to be.

Considering what you have told me last time, there's not a single drop of Caldari spirit in you, minmatar.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2015-09-05 19:09:35 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:

It seems you misunderstand what I said. My statement has nothing to do with democracy at all. I am questioning the decision-making processes being made in the Republic.

I suggest looking back at the Colelie incident, and the events that led to it. We are already aware that there was a mass public outrage about Gerne Broteau's mass killings of the Minmatar population, especially the slaying of the late Karin Midular. We also know that the Republic fleet sent a task force into Federation space to snatch the mass-killer from the clutches of the Federation, a move that resulted in the destruction of 15 Naglfar-class dreadnaughts.

Here are the questions I will pose.

Without the benefit of hindsight, is the sending of these dreadnaughts to retrieve this criminal, who would be met with justice anyway, a good move?

What do we stand to gain and what do we stand to lose from all these? Are the losses worth the gain.

Who made this decision? Was it the Republic Fleet Command, or at least elements within it, or was it the Tribal Assembly?

If it was the Republic Fleet Command, then can we say they are moving under the auspice of the Tribal Assembly? If the Tribal Assembly did not give the Republic Fleet Command this order, then what kind of power does the Tribal Assembly have over the Republic Fleet Command?

If this was the decision of the Tribal Assembly, then did they really make this decision for rational and pragmatic reasons, or were they swept by the tide of public outrage? Or perhaps, the decision was made due to their own outrage?


It seems I did. And yes, this is a valid concern with the way our government worked before the new Tribal Order and even after.

While other governments can fail to act in time ours can act far more quickly, often before things are fully thought out. This is an advantage in times of war but can be to our disadvantage in times of uncertainty. In hindsight during a battle, people can die because a critical decision was not made quickly enough, our military and our government is structured to empower those "on the ground" to make those critical decisions.

So was borne the failure of Colelie. Others acting in the stead of those who's decision it was to make. A government straddling two opposing ideals and trying to make the best out of both. Thankfully both nations were able to see the tragedy in it, the war the assassin attempted to start did not.

And now, under the new Tribal Order, such things could not happen the way they did. Not without a clear line of responsibility. Chief Midular addressed this to the Tribal Assembly:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/chief-acassa-midular-sets-out-autonomy-doctrine-at-tribal-assembly/

A tenant which has been cemented in the New Tribal order. It is a terrible thing to speculate but if Colelie had happened after our government was re-formed then it would have been the sole protected responsibility of the Sebiestor Tribe to handle the assassination of their Chief. Colelie may never have happened or if it had, then it would have been the sole decision of the acting Chief or heads of Clans. If the decision to go forward and attack was still made, it would have been Sebiestor ships, not Republic Fleet. Not unless the Chiefs agreed to send the Republic to war on the behalf of the Sebiestor Tribe. Not a comfort to those who died, but at least some small comfort that it could not happen again the way it did. The lesson was learned and the problem addressed in hindsight. Many changes since Colelie could have prevented it from happening, prevented the open fire order given, prevented the dreads even being there. And if everything had happened exactly as it did then at least it would be a decision made by someone who's responsibility it was to make. Someone who would then be held accountable.

As to who made the decision, It is not fair to whomever's mistake it was to open fire, to cause the spark that lit the fire. Even a Dread wing commander, ...it would be unfair to persecute any person for the failure. Because it was a failure that the decision fell to such a person at all.

We cannot change the past but only fix and learn from our mistakes. I hope I answered your questions Elmund.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Skyweir Kinnison
Doomheim
#88 - 2015-09-06 08:27:31 UTC
So in other words, any treaties or legal arrangements entered into by the 'Republic' are ignored when it suits one of their constituent tribes.

Requiring any civilised government to consider having to establish embassies and treaty arrangements with each individual tribe if they want surety.

Which then invites the picking and choosing of sides, foreign powers fomenting division, and internal rivalries for favour.

Good luck with that.



Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#89 - 2015-09-06 11:23:11 UTC
One minmatar of Sebiestor tribe, after cheating on me in a simple silly bet and pouring buckets of crap words, later she told me when I confronting her with lack of honor, that they consider keeping words given only to other minmatars, but not to others.

Go ahead, sign treaties or business contracts with them after that...

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#90 - 2015-09-06 13:39:34 UTC
Republic, a broken, unfeasible Gallentean project of applying their oh-so-precious democracy to the Tribes.

The only thing keeping it together are loose strings of nationalism and fear of the 'external enemies'.

Anyone associating themselves with it is either blind, naive or a zealot. But those three are commonly interchangeable.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
Arrendis
TK Corp
#91 - 2015-09-06 15:43:46 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
One minmatar of Sebiestor tribe, after cheating on me in a simple silly bet and pouring buckets of crap words, later she told me when I confronting her with lack of honor, that they consider keeping words given only to other minmatars, but not to others.

Go ahead, sign treaties or business contracts with them after that...


So, let me get this straight:

Someone proved themselves to be dishonest, and gave you an excuse.

And you believed it.

Way to play into your confirmation biases, tool.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2015-09-06 16:55:20 UTC
Leopold Caine wrote:
Republic, a broken, unfeasible Gallentean project of applying their oh-so-precious democracy to the Tribes.


Have you been living under a rock? Can you read?

There is no more Democracy or Gallentean influence in the Republic. It was ended nearly two years ago after a previous five years of dismantling the first Republic.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#93 - 2015-09-06 16:55:53 UTC
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:
So in other words, any treaties or legal arrangements entered into by the 'Republic' are ignored when it suits one of their constituent tribes.

Requiring any civilised government to consider having to establish embassies and treaty arrangements with each individual tribe if they want surety.

Which then invites the picking and choosing of sides, foreign powers fomenting division, and internal rivalries for favour.

Good luck with that.


I actually far prefer this. When you make a deal with The Republic you are now making a deal that must be honoured by all the tribes. The deal must be fair to all the tribes and it is easy to tell what each of the tribes wants - a deal that benefits their own people.

If a deal is to benefit one tribe more than the others then it is the responsibility of the OTHER tribes of the Matari to trade to the slighted tribe for their support. What is the deal worth to you? What is it worth to the tribes who benefit? The answers to these questions will determine how to sweeten the pot.

Instead of being shackled to obscure brands that aren't even descriptive of the true policies of the party, the Republic is now dominated by factions who will act in the service of their constituents. To a Caldari, this system is FAR more understandable and comfortable to do business within.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2015-09-06 17:17:56 UTC
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:
So in other words, any treaties or legal arrangements entered into by the 'Republic' are ignored when it suits one of their constituent tribes.

Requiring any civilised government to consider having to establish embassies and treaty arrangements with each individual tribe if they want surety.

Which then invites the picking and choosing of sides, foreign powers fomenting division, and internal rivalries for favour.

Good luck with that.


No more than a Heir of the Empire can act autonomously,or a Megacorp can go against the will of the State. We cannot all hide behind Black Eagles and private interests when we break our treaties Skyweir. You act as though there is no consequences in life when you are Matari by design of government.

At this point your criticism seems to be that because lines of culpability and responsibility now exist to prevent the Republic from breaking treaties that the Republic is somehow inferior to the previous hybrid quasi-democratic government which did not. It is beginning to seem like damned if you do not, damned if you do argument.

And of course another nation would need embassies with each individual Tribe. The overwhelming majority of our government is at the Tribal level, the Republic as a whole is a means for them to interact, cooperate and settle disputes. Even your Federation keeps Embassies with Khanid, with Lai-Dai. ...Why the hostility when you realize that the Republic works in a similar way.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#95 - 2015-09-07 07:15:27 UTC
Ayallah wrote:

Have you been living under a rock? Can you read?

There is no more Democracy or Gallentean influence in the Republic. It was ended nearly two years ago after a previous five years of dismantling the first Republic.


I'm glad to hear of the establishment of the Minmatar Kingdom then.

Again, don't be so naive. A couple hotblooded idiots making the whole Colelie mess doesn't mean a sudden switch in a whole 'nation's cultural and political legacy and policies.

I wish it was that simple.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
Arrendis
TK Corp
#96 - 2015-09-07 08:44:24 UTC
Leopold Caine wrote:
I'm glad to hear of the establishment of the Minmatar Kingdom then.


Don't be more foolish than you must. Tribal rule is neither Democracy, nor a 'Kingdom'. Call it a tribal oligarchy if you want.