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Gate camp overrun

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Abibu Ostus
Doomheim
#1 - 2015-08-23 13:32:40 UTC
Flying a Rifter with 3x Inertial Stabs, 1x Med Shield extender, 1x Small Shield extender, 1x Shield booster.

After gate jump, i align to an entity, object, astro.. , placed aprox, staight ahead; if I rotate ship axis, 0 - 15 dgr. , i have a good chance to escape. Immedialtelly I warp to 100km. Purpose is to minimize turning time.
I am feeling. if I press first "align to", i will accelerate faster (instead of directly warp).

Maximizing Shield deffence, will help to survive a camp before gate jump.
Bl3t
Victory or Whatever
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#2 - 2015-08-23 14:59:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Bl3t
Interia stabs and shield extenders increase your sig radius, so they will lock you fastre
I would drop stabs to Nano all Day long
Also mixing passive and ative def is not a good option
Change extenders to resist modules
PlantythePottedPlant
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#3 - 2015-08-23 15:57:04 UTC  |  Edited by: PlantythePottedPlant
Quote:
After gate jump, i align to an entity, object, astro.. , placed aprox, staight ahead; if I rotate ship axis, 0 - 15 dgr. , i have a good chance to escape.


What you're talking about is called passive aligning and it's a belief a lot have, despite the fact that it doesn't exist.

It doesn't matter how your ship looks like it's pointed, Eve works on vectors. If you're at 0 m/s velocity, you're a point in space, and you'll align any direction equally. Your ship pointing in a direction is merely a graphical quirk so it's not just spinning wildly at 0 m/s.

This doesn't apply if you're already moving, as any velocity above 0 would change your align time based on what said velocity is in relation to your warp destination.
Abibu Ostus
Doomheim
#4 - 2015-09-04 18:52:18 UTC
Bl3t wrote:
Interia stabs and shield extenders increase your sig radius, so they will lock you fastre
I would drop stabs to Nano all Day long
Also mixing passive and ative def is not a good option
Change extenders to resist modules




Apparently, you are rught,... but no, u dont:

1. sig radius increasing has not a big influence on lock time, DMG received, etc , becouse we dont have a linear function; check wiki for formulas; sizes are not direct proportional.
for example: 30% increasing of sig radius; will give approx 3-5% increas of lock time or DMG received ;
-but I-stabs, definitelly give a better align time, which could save you from locking; also EFT give a good ideea

rifter 1 (3 I-stabs): lock time on this set-up: 2.4s; align time 1.9 s
rifter 2 (3 nano ): lock time on this one: 2.7s; align time ; 2.1 sec

not a big difference; however I bet on I-stabs

2. mixing extender + booster, is a very good ideea;
In principal, we have deffensive defined by HP. A resist module, like all pasive mods, can be "translated" into HP as well. active mods, just replace lost HP by damage ; see: ISK_Vol_1_Incursion_1_4
so all pasive mods, can be mixed with all active mods; it is a matter of prefference (actually, it depends on PG and CPU available)

so , i bet on extender + booster
Abibu Ostus
Doomheim
#5 - 2015-09-04 19:19:28 UTC
PlantythePottedPlant wrote:
Quote:
After gate jump, i align to an entity, object, astro.. , placed aprox, staight ahead; if I rotate ship axis, 0 - 15 dgr. , i have a good chance to escape.


What you're talking about is called passive aligning and it's a belief a lot have, despite the fact that it doesn't exist.

It doesn't matter how your ship looks like it's pointed, Eve works on vectors. If you're at 0 m/s velocity, you're a point in space, and you'll align any direction equally. Your ship pointing in a direction is merely a graphical quirk so it's not just spinning wildly at 0 m/s.

This doesn't apply if you're already moving, as any velocity above 0 would change your align time based on what said velocity is in relation to your warp destination.


yes , EVE works on vectors,... yes I will align any direction equally, but not equally for any angle.

and, you are right, only for ships with mass=0; but our ships have mass !!

however i said : " I am feeling,,,"
i escaped several times from gate campers, after gate jump; using my strategy (even better i thing, than MWD+cloack trick);
this is a fact ; i dont know what sort of equations CCp uses.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#6 - 2015-09-05 02:26:44 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Abibu Ostus wrote:
PlantythePottedPlant wrote:
Quote:
After gate jump, i align to an entity, object, astro.. , placed aprox, staight ahead; if I rotate ship axis, 0 - 15 dgr. , i have a good chance to escape.


What you're talking about is called passive aligning and it's a belief a lot have, despite the fact that it doesn't exist.

It doesn't matter how your ship looks like it's pointed, Eve works on vectors. If you're at 0 m/s velocity, you're a point in space, and you'll align any direction equally. Your ship pointing in a direction is merely a graphical quirk so it's not just spinning wildly at 0 m/s.

This doesn't apply if you're already moving, as any velocity above 0 would change your align time based on what said velocity is in relation to your warp destination.


yes , EVE works on vectors,... yes I will align any direction equally, but not equally for any angle.

and, you are right, only for ships with mass=0; but our ships have mass !!

however i said : " I am feeling,,,"
i escaped several times from gate campers, after gate jump; using my strategy (even better i thing, than MWD+cloack trick);
this is a fact ; i dont know what sort of equations CCp uses.

Errrrr.... not exactly.

To be truly "aligned" and able to warp, only two conditions need to be satisfied:

- your trajectory/vector is in-line with your destination within about 5 degrees
- your velocity needs to be within 75 to 125% of your max speed

From a "cold start" (see: you are sitting still at 0 m/sec... which you are after each gate jump) your vector/trajectory is already pointing towards your destination the moment you hit warp. The only condition your ship now has to satisfy is speed (which depends on your ship's agility modifier and mass).

What your ship is graphically doing is irrelevant.
The server only sees you ship only as a sphere (full of stats) with a vector/trajectory. Without speed, your ship has no vector/trajectory and the client (which has all the graphical pretties in it) tries to make a "best guess."


tldr; the direction your ship is pointing in when at 0 m/sec does not matter. Your align time will be the same in any direction, at any angle. Your align time will change (see: increase) if you have speed and your vector/trajectory is not in-line with the destination (at which point, agility and mass come into play).

NOTE: the "tricks" you have heard about (see: MWD-cloak, MWD-pulse, webbing-assist, etc) are "unintended workarounds" that manipulate the max speed of a ship to get into warp faster.

How did you Veterans start?
Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
#7 - 2015-09-05 08:40:59 UTC
While we are at this, I have recently come across this rig:
Small Higgs Anchor I, says Inertia modifier -55% and velocity modifier -75%

Now, that seems to me a pretty big advantage for industrials and similar ships that are slow to align, like your own personal permanent webber on an already more agile (due to inertia modifier) ship or am I missing something?
Also, would that work with the Cloak/MWD mechanic, anyone has an idea?

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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#8 - 2015-09-05 20:46:30 UTC
Nerath Naaris wrote:
While we are at this, I have recently come across this rig:
Small Higgs Anchor I, says Inertia modifier -55% and velocity modifier -75%

Now, that seems to me a pretty big advantage for industrials and similar ships that are slow to align, like your own personal permanent webber on an already more agile (due to inertia modifier) ship or am I missing something?
Also, would that work with the Cloak/MWD mechanic, anyone has an idea?


Yes, the higgs anchor decreases warpout times by a bit, provided that nothing else that boosts ship agility is fit. It wouldn't really help the Cloak/MWD trick though.
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-09-05 21:35:06 UTC
There's a strong trick that haven't been mentioned here.

Given how server's destiny tick works, anything that align faster than 2 seconds will not be lockable before it warps, as your ship warps before the hostile's client is notified that you decloaked and aligned. No matter the camper's scan res or your ship sig radius.

Here's the explication on why : https://www.themittani.com/features/understanding-eve-online-server-tick

Also don't forget this doesn't work at undock as you aren't cloaked.

So if your goal is to build a ship that will escape campgates, use this trick.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#10 - 2015-09-05 22:24:12 UTC
Bl3t wrote:

I would drop stabs to Nano all Day long


Nanofibers increase your ships max velocity, meaning you have longer to wait before hitting warp.

if you're after a <2s align time, use Inertial Stabs, NOT Nanos. Sig radius doesn't matter in this case, as you'll be gone before the server ticks over to activate a point.

Where the sig radius on I-Stabs WILL hurt you is if you run into a smartbomber.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#11 - 2015-09-06 19:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Nanofibers increase your ships max velocity, meaning you have longer to wait before hitting warp.

No... they don't.

Even if your max speed rises, the relative rate that you accelerate at does not change (unless you add mass or alter the agility/inertia modifier).

Examples
- with max skills... a "naked" Rifter has a max speed of ~450 m/sec and takes 3.2 seconds to align
- with max skills.... a Rifter with 3x overdrive injectors has a max speed of ~600 m/sec and takes 3.2 seconds to align

- with max skills... a Rifter with a single 400mm plate has a max speed of ~450 m/sec and takes 4 seconds to align

- with max skills... a Rifter with 3x Inertial stabilizers has a max speed of ~450 m/sec and takes 1.9 seconds to align
- with max skills... a Rifter with 3x Nanofibers has a max speed of ~500 m/sec and takes 2.1 seconds to align

The difference between the last two Rifters in the examples is that Nanofibers affect agility less than Inertial Stabilizers. However, they keep the signature radius at around ~35 (compared to the sig radius of ~45 that Inertial Stabilizers create).


edit:
The reason you see people recommend Nanofibers over I-Stabs is because I-Stabs are really only useful for travel fits (because they only affect one stat).
Nanos offer several advantages (smaller sig, higher agility, and higher max speed), but at lower amounts and with a penalty that almost all frigates can live with... which gives a ship more capabilities beyond merely traveling.

Mephiztopheleze wrote:
if you're after a <2s align time, use Inertial Stabs, NOT Nanos. Sig radius doesn't matter in this case, as you'll be gone before the server ticks over to activate a point.

True... and I agree here... to a point.

If you are dealing with a gatecamp being run by Europeans (specifically Brits) then IT IS possible to grab people with an align time less than 2 seconds (because the server is located in England, resulting in very little latency).
Luck has a lot to do with it too (see: beginning to lock up a person right as the server "ticks").

Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Where the sig radius on I-Stabs WILL hurt you is if you run into a smartbomber.

Smartbombs deal "absolute" damage... having a small sig with not mitigate smartbomb damage in any way, shape, or form.

How did you Veterans start?
Abibu Ostus
Doomheim
#12 - 2015-09-08 05:34:52 UTC
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors:

indeed, my 3 I-stabs on a Rifter, are just for travel; i have a Mob. Depot, and I refit.
Nalena Linova
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2015-09-08 14:11:31 UTC
Abibu Ostus wrote:
Flying a Rifter with 3x Inertial Stabs, 1x Med Shield extender, 1x Small Shield extender, 1x Shield booster.

After gate jump, i align to an entity, object, astro.. , placed aprox, staight ahead; if I rotate ship axis, 0 - 15 dgr. , i have a good chance to escape. Immedialtelly I warp to 100km. Purpose is to minimize turning time.
I am feeling. if I press first "align to", i will accelerate faster (instead of directly warp).

Maximizing Shield deffence, will help to survive a camp before gate jump.



Is there a question hidden in your post, or are you just making a series of incorrect statements?
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#14 - 2015-09-08 15:18:48 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Nanofibers increase your ships max velocity, meaning you have longer to wait before hitting warp.

No... they don't.

Even if your max speed rises, the relative rate that you accelerate at does not change (unless you add mass or alter the agility/inertia modifier).

Examples
- with max skills... a "naked" Rifter has a max speed of ~450 m/sec and takes 3.2 seconds to align
- with max skills.... a Rifter with 3x overdrive injectors has a max speed of ~600 m/sec and takes 3.2 seconds to align

- with max skills... a Rifter with a single 400mm plate has a max speed of ~450 m/sec and takes 4 seconds to align

- with max skills... a Rifter with 3x Inertial stabilizers has a max speed of ~450 m/sec and takes 1.9 seconds to align
- with max skills... a Rifter with 3x Nanofibers has a max speed of ~500 m/sec and takes 2.1 seconds to align

The difference between the last two Rifters in the examples is that Nanofibers affect agility less than Inertial Stabilizers. However, they keep the signature radius at around ~35 (compared to the sig radius of ~45 that Inertial Stabilizers create).


edit:
The reason you see people recommend Nanofibers over I-Stabs is because I-Stabs are really only useful for travel fits (because they only affect one stat).
Nanos offer several advantages (smaller sig, higher agility, and higher max speed), but at lower amounts and with a penalty that almost all frigates can live with... which gives a ship more capabilities beyond merely traveling.

Mephiztopheleze wrote:
if you're after a <2s align time, use Inertial Stabs, NOT Nanos. Sig radius doesn't matter in this case, as you'll be gone before the server ticks over to activate a point.

True... and I agree here... to a point.

If you are dealing with a gatecamp being run by Europeans (specifically Brits) then IT IS possible to grab people with an align time less than 2 seconds (because the server is located in England, resulting in very little latency).
Luck has a lot to do with it too (see: beginning to lock up a person right as the server "ticks").

Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Where the sig radius on I-Stabs WILL hurt you is if you run into a smartbomber.

Smartbombs deal "absolute" damage... having a small sig with not mitigate smartbomb damage in any way, shape, or form.


Not to mention if you have nanofibers, you can burn back to gate faster.
Abibu Ostus
Doomheim
#15 - 2015-09-08 17:26:10 UTC
Nalena Linova wrote:
Abibu Ostus wrote:
Flying a Rifter with 3x Inertial Stabs, 1x Med Shield extender, 1x Small Shield extender, 1x Shield booster.

After gate jump, i align to an entity, object, astro.. , placed aprox, staight ahead; if I rotate ship axis, 0 - 15 dgr. , i have a good chance to escape. Immedialtelly I warp to 100km. Purpose is to minimize turning time.
I am feeling. if I press first "align to", i will accelerate faster (instead of directly warp).

Maximizing Shield deffence, will help to survive a camp before gate jump.



Is there a question hidden in your post, or are you just making a series of incorrect statements?


Nalena Linova
Crimson Serpent Syndicate:

did u read all above, or u are just a false clever person???

this site is not for help/ questions only, is also for opinions ;
if my statement is incorrect , pls, maket it correct!!

some agree with me ; for travel I-stabs are better than nano.
Nalena Linova
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-09-09 10:05:12 UTC
Abibu Ostus wrote:


Nalena Linova
Crimson Serpent Syndicate:

did u read all above, or u are just a false clever person???

this site is not for help/ questions only, is also for opinions ;
if my statement is incorrect , pls, maket it correct!!

some agree with me ; for travel I-stabs are better than nano.



Maybe I should have made my post clearer. You are posting 'opinions' on a subject that has been a solved issue in eve for many years.

If you create a thread that is just a statement of incorrect information, it smacks of trolling and you won't get many serious replies. Frame it as a question, and you might get more people willing to discuss with you.

There is a wealth of information available on the subject of align times, inertia and gate camps.

Allow me to assist you:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=eve+how+to+escape+a+gatecamp