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Friendly reminder that autocannons are still terrible
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Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#81 - 2015-09-04 18:17:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Joe Risalo wrote:
Oddly enough, This shows a bit of a different story on what seems to be the best.

Obviously it shows the Caracal to be a powerhouse, but that's not what I'm pointing out here.

In this list, you see 2 medium missile boats, 2 medium hybrid boats (though the Vexor is a drone boat as well), 2 drone boats (also including the vexor) though these aren't specifically medium weapons in particular, 1 medium laser boat (oracle doesn't count as it's large guns), and two medium projectile boats.

Top damage is of course drones (almost everyone has drones, so this makes sense), then light missiles (it's actually odd that these aren't at the top of the list considering the Caracal has almost 1/3 more damage inflicted than any other ship on this list).


The main thing this list points out though, is that 200mm ACs and scourge heavy missiles are the only cruiser class weapons represented on this list.

Now, the heavy missiles being on this are represented by the drake more specifically, while there are some Caracals that were likely fit with heavies, but not nearly as many as there are rapid light fit.
But, we also can't say that all the light missiles are tied only to the Caracal, as the Condor and the Blackbird likely were majority fitted with light missile systems. However, we can likely say that the Caracal is a solid 3/4 to 7/8 of the light missile damage.

We'll say 7/8, so 7/8 of light missiles would bring 9660 down to 8452.5, which is still pretty significant, and leaves navy scourge lights in the same spot.
On the topic of Rapid lights, I think this can be adjusted by removing the range bonus for rapid lights from Crusier class hulls, which falls in line with BS class bonuses. Though, the Mordu's Legion hulls may remain the exemption (though this might get balanced as well).

Now, we're all aware of that, but that then goes to show that after rebalancing rapid lights, 200mm ACs are the leading damage weapon of all cruiser class weapon systems, and 1 of only 3 medium class weapons that are actually present on this list, the second being Heavy scourge and third being rapid light which we already discussed.

Now, I realize this info is limited to Eve University Alliance, but it is the only statistic i can locate that actually shows weapon type as well has hull.

that being said, it shows 200mm ACs to be the preferred medium class weapon (excluding rapid lights due to balance issues), with only one other medium weapon system even being present on this list.


Soo, tell me again, how bad are medium ACs?


Um..should i tell him?

200mm ACs are SMALL sized autocannons. Not MEDIUM. For someone who claims acs are fine, how do you not know which is which? Do you even fly ships with autocannons? Im assuming small acs are being used so much because of thrashers, sabres, and svipuls. This has no relavence on our discussion about medium acs though.

Smalls = 125, 150 and 200mm
Medium = 180mm, 220mm and 425mm

Medium acs arent even on your list. So tell me again, how good are medium acs?

Thank you for proving our point.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#82 - 2015-09-04 18:26:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Milton Middleson
200mm ACs are frigate sized weapons, and presumably enjoy their high position in the rankings due to the popularity of the Thrasher and Svipul (both of which are arguably good in spite of being saddled with autocannons).

edit: since Stitch beat me to the punch, I suppose I'll try to add something else.

I think part of the issue is the way falloff mechanics work. At optimal + falloff, you are doing ~37% of paper dps, which compounds the ACs problem of unremarkable DPS unless your ships sports a double damage bonus (in which case, it has no falloff bonus and your falloff probably isn't long enough to be useful in anything larger than a frigate). Simply extending AC falloff a bit might help, since that will mean they will do more damage at almost every range without actually lifting the max DPS. On the other hand, I'm a bit leery about continuing projection creep.
Ix Method
Doomheim
#83 - 2015-09-04 18:31:17 UTC
Tash D'Angst wrote:
Agreed, OP.

The Small Guns do not seem to suffer as badly, in practice. (On paper, they're horrifying-- the DPS drop off is sooo steep.)

Because loads of frigate fights are at point blank range. Try to do anything else and they're just as gash as the larger classes.

Travelling at the speed of love.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#84 - 2015-09-04 18:33:02 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Oddly enough, This shows a bit of a different story on what seems to be the best.

Obviously it shows the Caracal to be a powerhouse, but that's not what I'm pointing out here.

In this list, you see 2 medium missile boats, 2 medium hybrid boats (though the Vexor is a drone boat as well), 2 drone boats (also including the vexor) though these aren't specifically medium weapons in particular, 1 medium laser boat (oracle doesn't count as it's large guns), and two medium projectile boats.

Top damage is of course drones (almost everyone has drones, so this makes sense), then light missiles (it's actually odd that these aren't at the top of the list considering the Caracal has almost 1/3 more damage inflicted than any other ship on this list).


The main thing this list points out though, is that 200mm ACs and scourge heavy missiles are the only cruiser class weapons represented on this list.

Now, the heavy missiles being on this are represented by the drake more specifically, while there are some Caracals that were likely fit with heavies, but not nearly as many as there are rapid light fit.
But, we also can't say that all the light missiles are tied only to the Caracal, as the Condor and the Blackbird likely were majority fitted with light missile systems. However, we can likely say that the Caracal is a solid 3/4 to 7/8 of the light missile damage.

We'll say 7/8, so 7/8 of light missiles would bring 9660 down to 8452.5, which is still pretty significant, and leaves navy scourge lights in the same spot.
On the topic of Rapid lights, I think this can be adjusted by removing the range bonus for rapid lights from Crusier class hulls, which falls in line with BS class bonuses. Though, the Mordu's Legion hulls may remain the exemption (though this might get balanced as well).

Now, we're all aware of that, but that then goes to show that after rebalancing rapid lights, 200mm ACs are the leading damage weapon of all cruiser class weapon systems, and 1 of only 3 medium class weapons that are actually present on this list, the second being Heavy scourge and third being rapid light which we already discussed.

Now, I realize this info is limited to Eve University Alliance, but it is the only statistic i can locate that actually shows weapon type as well has hull.

that being said, it shows 200mm ACs to be the preferred medium class weapon (excluding rapid lights due to balance issues), with only one other medium weapon system even being present on this list.


Soo, tell me again, how bad are medium ACs?


Um..should i tell him?

200mm ACs are SMALL sized autocannons. Not MEDIUM. For someone who claims acs are fine, how do you not know which is which? Do you even fly ships with autocannons? Im assuming small acs are being used so much because of thrashers, sabres, and svipuls. This has no relavence on our discussion about medium acs though.

Smalls = 125, 150 and 200mm
Medium = 180mm, 220mm and 425mm

Medium acs arent even on your list. So tell me again, how good are medium acs?

Thank you for proving our point.


My mistake... Ignore my first comment. (you can thank dyslexia and astigmatism for this)

The link now goes to show that missiles are the only medium sized weapons on the tops list.

It now goes to show that Caracals are OP, likely due to projection, especially in the case of Rapid light projection.

That said, there are still 2 medium class ships on that list that typically use medium class projectiles.
Hurricanes are likely arty fit, though some are probably AC, while the other ship (closed my list already) was likely predominently AC.


I now revert back to my original point of, without a solid list comparing the damage output of all weapon systems, we'll never know how preferred and/or underpowered medium ACs are in comparison to other medium weapon systems.
Truian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2015-09-04 18:35:13 UTC
One potential remedy would be to address ambit rigs.

Ambit extension and locus coordinator tech I rigs provide the same bonus of 15% to falloff and optimal, respectively.

However, an optimal range bonus is almost always preferred to a falloff bonus (on most weapon systems) due to game mechanics, and this has been recognized in various ship modules such as tracking computers and tracking enhancers (falloff bonus is 2X optimal range bonus).

If ambit rigs were given a moderate boost, it would help address the inability of medium autocannons to function in kite ranges. It would also increase rig diversity on ships, which would be nice to see.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#86 - 2015-09-04 18:50:03 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Oddly enough, This shows a bit of a different story on what seems to be the best.


Start Date: 2006-09-17 20:10:00.

That's almost ten years of data. While impressive, things are not what they were 5 years ago. EvE U is also a learning corp, so their choices are going to be heavily tilted towards cheaper, easier to fly ships. They are also going to have a ship fit available for every race/ship class for every fleet, even if its a suboptimal choice.

I wish zKill and others had a more sophisticated and more detailed ship usage metric, but I'm not too unsatisfied with just seeing the top ten. It hasn't been the stabber or the rupture since I started checking every week or so, or the vagabond. The Caracal's spot on that chart is guaranteed via RLMLs and we all know it.

Truian wrote:
One potential remedy would be to address ambit rigs.


Bandaid solutions are bad solutions, though the suggestion is thoughtful.

It would fix a LOT of weapon systems and make the game a lot better overall if they address speed creep. If they just buff weapon systems or given them bandaid modules and buffs, they just add to the current horror show.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#87 - 2015-09-04 19:43:01 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
[...] I now revert back to my original point of, without a solid list comparing the damage output of all weapon systems, we'll never know how preferred and/or underpowered medium ACs are in comparison to other medium weapon systems.


pyfa-graph, Just putting HACs next to each other and ignoring the case of snaked, linked, x-instinct interceptor or 10mn succubus actually mitigating LMLs, the range bonused vaga manages to beat the blaster deimos at ranges 22km+, albeit having roughly 30% less tracking. Being worse at kiting aside from heated point range compared to a rather dedicated brawler is not that impressive. (Deimos with Null, Vaga with Barrage, Zealot with scorch and Cerb with CN missiles)
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#88 - 2015-09-04 22:56:13 UTC
Here's a valid comparison of all HACs.

http://imgur.com/X2yoo4r&WDpRn84&dEhni2b&LRcQf9v&9P7xHsw&RDrXzl1&kB0Y69N&k7b4e66

Pic 1 - short range weapons, high damage ammo - no target modifiers
Pic 2 - short range, high damage - target modifier
Pic 3 - short range, ranged amm0 - no mod
Pic 4 - short, ranged - mod
Pic 5 - long range, high damage - no mod
Pic 6 - long, high - mod
Pic 7 - long, ranged - no mod
Pic 8 - long, ranged - mod

The ones without target modifiers don't really matter, but I included them in order to show the variation.

Having looked at these graphs, I don't see the problem. Even in the case of the Cerb, it's really not that impressive until it out ranges other short range weapon systems.
Even the Ishtar is not that impressive at range. Sure, it pwns with heavies within a reasonable range, but they can be destroyed.

The only issue I see with Projectiles is specific to the range of arty with ranged ammo, but this might be intended, based on their application within 40km, being the highest.
But, I still feel that specific ammo is broken.
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
#89 - 2015-09-04 23:11:51 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Here's a valid comparison of all HACs.

http://imgur.com/X2yoo4r&WDpRn84&dEhni2b&LRcQf9v&9P7xHsw&RDrXzl1&kB0Y69N&k7b4e66

Pic 1 - short range weapons, high damage ammo - no target modifiers
Pic 2 - short range, high damage - target modifier
Pic 3 - short range, ranged amm0 - no mod
Pic 4 - short, ranged - mod
Pic 5 - long range, high damage - no mod
Pic 6 - long, high - mod
Pic 7 - long, ranged - no mod
Pic 8 - long, ranged - mod

The ones without target modifiers don't really matter, but I included them in order to show the variation.

Having looked at these graphs, I don't see the problem. Even in the case of the Cerb, it's really not that impressive until it out ranges other short range weapon systems.
Even the Ishtar is not that impressive at range. Sure, it pwns with heavies within a reasonable range, but they can be destroyed.

The only issue I see with Projectiles is specific to the range of arty with ranged ammo, but this might be intended, based on their application within 40km, being the highest.
But, I still feel that specific ammo is broken.



I literally dont even how you managed to make a Cerberus do less than 200 dps, even with precision missiles it still does 266 dps naked. >> http://i.imgur.com/4qvAU3y.png

RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#90 - 2015-09-05 00:56:54 UTC
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Here's a valid comparison of all HACs.

http://imgur.com/X2yoo4r&WDpRn84&dEhni2b&LRcQf9v&9P7xHsw&RDrXzl1&kB0Y69N&k7b4e66

Pic 1 - short range weapons, high damage ammo - no target modifiers
Pic 2 - short range, high damage - target modifier
Pic 3 - short range, ranged amm0 - no mod
Pic 4 - short, ranged - mod
Pic 5 - long range, high damage - no mod
Pic 6 - long, high - mod
Pic 7 - long, ranged - no mod
Pic 8 - long, ranged - mod

The ones without target modifiers don't really matter, but I included them in order to show the variation.

Having looked at these graphs, I don't see the problem. Even in the case of the Cerb, it's really not that impressive until it out ranges other short range weapon systems.
Even the Ishtar is not that impressive at range. Sure, it pwns with heavies within a reasonable range, but they can be destroyed.

The only issue I see with Projectiles is specific to the range of arty with ranged ammo, but this might be intended, based on their application within 40km, being the highest.
But, I still feel that specific ammo is broken.



I literally dont even how you managed to make a Cerberus do less than 200 dps, even with precision missiles it still does 266 dps naked. >> http://i.imgur.com/4qvAU3y.png


lol, woops..
Accidently had it fit with LML instead of RLML.
Changes to its stats.
371 dps to 71km - no target modifiers (shooting a structure basically)
236 dps to 71km - with same target modifiers as presented in graphs.

My mistake.

Having addressed that, rapid lights are OP.
I think their projection can be balanced by addressing the ships themselves.
Cruisers and BCs should not have range bonuses applied to light missiles, which falls in line with BSs.

31km range without ship bonuses (all other skills 5)

As far as DPS, The Golem has 82 dps more with RHML as opposed to cruise.
Cerb has 51 dps more with RLML over HML. Perhaps it may need a 10 dps nerf to RLML, putting it 41 dps more than HML, exactly half the diffference between RHML and Cruise.
This can be done by slightly reducing base RoF of RLML. If you tried to apply it as a damage nerf to light missles, it would neuter LMLs which I feel are balanced.

Removing the hull based projection bonuses to lights would help to make HML and HAM more viable.
However, both HAM and HML need their fitting costs reduced and their application slightly increased to be more viable on cruisers and against cruisers. (again, reduce fitting capability of missile based BCs in order to keep their balance.
HAMS and HML are fairly balanced on range, and are balanced between themselves, so that cap can likely stay the same.


Back on thread topic though, the only issue is see with cruiser sized projectiles is specific to to modifications provided by arty ammunition.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#91 - 2015-09-05 02:03:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Joe Risalo wrote:


*snip*Missile thread is not here*snip*

http://imgur.com/X2yoo4r&WDpRn84&dEhni2b&LRcQf9v&9P7xHsw&RDrXzl1&kB0Y69N&k7b4e66

Back on thread topic though, the only issue is see with cruiser sized projectiles is specific to to modifications provided by arty ammunition.



The assault ships you listed aren't anti-support. A RLML sac is not flying around with Nomen's, BS, or anything really. An electron blaster deimos is not functioning as anti-support. An eagle is not anti-support. An ishtar with heavies, is most definitely not anti-support. Zealot maybe, but highly unlikely.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to prove here. You're just showing a bunch of HAC's shooting things. On top of that, you have things like blaster eagles, which is not a medium engagement ship. You are blurring the lines, and trying to say all these ships do the vaga's, or in this case AC's role. They do not. A blaster eagle intends to fight only in scram range. A blaster deimos is not out kiting at 24km. RLML sac's do not have the speed to kite anything, except maybe an eagle. By saying all these ships do the same role, and then comparing a/c's in that way, it gives the impression a/c's are doing ok. This is a false impression by including all these ships, and weapons that don't match the role.

I'll provide some of my own graphs. All ships are unfit, except their guns. The slicer does have 3 locus rigs, as thats the norm.

Anti-Support Assault Ships

I've included ships that might be considering for anti-support, or flexible enough to kill frigs, and kite out cruisers and other large ships to mitigate damage. Especially in small gang environments. All ships are fit with their large calibre short range weapon system with long range ammo (again, we're kiting here, not brawling, and the dps of the vaga will drop even more at point range with short range ammo). No, 425's are not normally used a vaga, its mainly to show it under the best of conditions, that it still sucks.

This is to say, the ROLE the vaga is doing, is out-done by most other HAC's, as they can provide the same support, tank, and have more flexability with larger ships. They don't lose 50% of their damage at point range.

They're shooting a CBC, and no other weapon system except AC's lose damage against a larger target at their intended engagement range. This has relegated kiting AC's to anti-frigate, which as i'm about to show you, can be done with much cheaper ships.

Anti-Support T1 - Cheaper, better, faster and all of the above

Now these are ships considerably cheaper than a vagabond that can perform the same role, but not lose damage against bigger targets at range, and still apply well to smaller targets. An EWAR ship applies better damage at point range than a 425 vagabond with barrage.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!