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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!! First post
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Lan Wang

Princess Aiko Hold My Hand

Safety. Net

Likes received: 4,111

#1241 - 2015-09-04 14:00:37 UTC

Anize Oramara wrote:

Lan Wang wrote:

PvP: Player vs. Player
A fight between players or groups of players.

PK: Player Killing
The murder of one player by another for grief, amusement or material gain.

its like saying a serial killer is a soldier...

Talking about misused terms and a complete lack of understanding what those terms means...

well enlighten me then

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Jill Xelitras

Xeltec services

Likes received: 566

#1242 - 2015-09-04 14:00:59 UTC

Lucas Kell wrote:

Anize Oramara wrote:

Lucas Kell wrote:

Anize Oramara wrote:

Unless that boar was in a private instance and you sell the loot to an NPC and use the gold to buy potions from an NPC or paid to fix your armor that was damaged in that instance.

I don't know of any private instances in WoW. Also, that exists in EVE. If I take courier missions to earn isk and I spend that isk on NPC items like skillbooks and blueprints, then I am having the same effect.

Hah private instances are a thing in WoW and in most MMOs. Plenty of them in GW2 that I can personally attest to for example. Also that courier mission? You can get ganked from point a to point B. Bam player interaction.

But all the time you don't get ganked, it's not PvP.

Also, see my other example. Rookie systems repeating rookie missions. People aren't actually allowed to do stuff to ya.

So if it is not law student ... did you join a debate club then ?

There is no sky.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Markus Reese

Deep Core Mining Inc.

Caldari State

Likes received: 866

#1243 - 2015-09-04 14:03:16 UTC | Edited by: Markus Reese

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

I think various definitions, viewpoints and arguments have been explored sufficiently in this ramble, to attempt and draw some perfunctory conclusions and attempt to tie this all back to the original topic of player retention.

Condensed, Well said points, well said!

So in conclusion:
A) Make it clear, on absolutely no uncertain terms, that EVE will vigorously rub your face and brain against a cheese-grater the second you step into it.
Really overstate it, so that there is no question about this, whatsoever.
Make it the "Here be dragons!" mark on the universal MMO map, where only the bold will go and the meak fear to tread.
This will attract many players looking for exactly that, and ensure that they are not dissatisfied due to their own false expectations.

B) Increase player competetiviness and interaction across the entire spectrum of EVE activities.
More risk, more competition in anything and everything conceivable.

You and I be on the same wavelength. Things need to be more integrated, not insulated. Smoother transition from rookie system to solo in -1.0 sov

babyblue wrote:

xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:

babyblue wrote:

[quote=Jenn aSide]

I don't know what the discussion is about to be honest. Eve just isn't a very good game. That's really all there is to it.

door is that way >>>>>>>

bye bye

only a fool pays for something he doesn't like.

I'm unsubbed, thanks. This is part of the problem though isn't it. Any criticism over and above some pointless and ultimately moot discussion about some trivial game rule or mechanic isn't tolerated.

Part of the problem is people who are more focused on complaining and semantics than offering up constructive solutions and ideas. There are tens of thousands of players vs CCPs relatively smaller dev team. That is one hell of a think tank that could be improving the game with ideas.

Wow, we are on the PvP talk again? Thought we resolved it. Okay whiny people now on PK vs PvP.... Guess what? Your happy WoW server? You start on a pvp server in a red zone. So who cares if you are killed without fighting back? You are given the tools for your revenge. PvP doesn't mean fighting back, it means there is a player, out to get another player.

If you are playing and FPS and get a headshot while trying to look at the pretty graphics or get some acheivement, the fact you were not countering does not make it not pvp. Why is a mission/mining ship considered pvp? Because, from the start I am in a zone where PLAYER VERSUS ANOTHER PLAYER combat is allowed. Consequences, yes, but still allowed. Exception are the starter systems just to give players a slight buffer to understand a chance to get the feel. Put in place because can you imagine if people were ganking them rookies in starting systems what it would do to the new player base?

We are throwing around terms such as competitive PvE. It does not exist in eve because there is no PvE scoreboard bases on insulated and identical PvE arenas. We have PvE that exists in a PvP arena. That is all there is!!!!!!!!! Simple concept.

So, what does this all mean? **** on saying Eve is a PvP game.

Eve is an open ended space RPG consisting of industry, trade, exploration and combat all within a dynamic and hostile environment. Loss can happen any time. There is nothing to protect you but the fear of consequences.

That is what CCP needs to advertize.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

xxxTRUSTxxx

Galactic Rangers

Likes received: 662

#1244 - 2015-09-04 14:03:20 UTC

babyblue wrote:

xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:

babyblue wrote:

Jenn aSide wrote:

It boils down to personality driven preferences, no amount of arguing will ever change that. I just let them say "competitive pve" because it makes them feel better even if it makes me want to roll my eyes.

I don't know what the discussion is about to be honest. Eve just isn't a very good game. That's really all there is to it.

door is that way >>>>>>>

bye bye

only a fool pays for something he doesn't like.

I'm unsubbed, thanks. This is part of the problem though isn't it. Any criticism over and above some pointless and ultimately moot discussion about some trivial game rule or mechanic isn't tolerated. And people like you, presumably the kind of personality recruited and retained easily, fill the game world.

I lasted on and off since beta 6 but mostly by avoiding interacting with players like you. No offence of course. You make Eve what it is, don't you? And what is that? Quite a mediocre video game.

you are not unsubbed, you're still on the forums. you are paying for a game you no longer play and you dare say people like me, presumably the kind of personality recruited and retained easily, fill the game world.
at least i still play the game i pay for.

I'm here because i love this game, no other reason.

why are you still here?

Jenn aSide

Soul Machines

The Initiative.

Likes received: 16,192

#1245 - 2015-09-04 14:03:30 UTC

Lan Wang wrote:

Anotyher example of what I'm talking about.

Both the PVPr and PKr are dudes (most likely dudes of course) sitting at a computer smashing buttons trying to get the other guy to blow up/die. Whether the other guy is fighting back or not is irrelevant, it's still one player vs another in some way.

A serial killer and a combat soldier overall aren't the same, BUT are both killers, the fact that one is evil/twisted and intentionally killing innocents for a thrill while the other is most likely fighting willing combatants while being ordered to do so doesn't change the base fact: they both kill people.

Lucas Kell

Solitude Trading

S.N.O.T.

Likes received: 8,040

#1246 - 2015-09-04 14:04:26 UTC

Anize Oramara wrote:

I'd agree with the newbie systems thing if not for the fact that the ships and ammo and drones, etc. needed to run missions or mine or do most of anything are still sold by.... players! Also you can't get a lot of the skills needed to manufacture a lot of what you'll need without leaving the newbie systems.

You are provided all you need when you start the game, including guns that require no ammo.

Anize Oramara wrote:

Manufacturing itself as well is affected by other people in many ways (indexes, available slots, mineral costs, BPCs).

Oh right research to get BPCs form BPOs, again, means competing with other players for slots, or pos locations, etc.

There are no slots in manufacturing, but then again, who said you need to manufacture or copy or research anything? A player could play the game purely to build up a collection of NPC bought goods in the NPC station.

And I know what you'll say, that's very unlikely. Yeah, about as unlikely as a WoW player having no interaction with other players, markets and non-instanced content while playing WoW.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Anize Oramara

WarpTooZero

Likes received: 885

#1247 - 2015-09-04 14:05:20 UTC

Lan Wang wrote:

Anize Oramara wrote:

Lan Wang wrote:

Talking about misused terms and a complete lack of understanding what those terms means...

well enlighten me then

Check the last, I dunno, 40 pages?

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Tippia

Sunshine and Lollipops

Likes received: 27,526

#1248 - 2015-09-04 14:07:11 UTC | Edited by: Tippia

Lan Wang wrote:

PvP: Player vs. Player
A fight between players or groups of players.

PK: Player Killing
The murder of one player by another for grief, amusement or material gain..

…and as you can see from that, any act of PK is PvP, and most instances of combat are done with the intent to PK. That said, your definition of PK is pointlessly over-dramatic. PK is simply player killing. PvP is simply player vs player. If we're talking about combat, we can't really have one without the other.

Quote:

its like saying a serial killer is a soldier

You mean a very common occurrence and often only a matter of perspective?

Lucas Kell wrote:

A player could play the game purely to build up a collection of NPC bought goods in the NPC station.

And I know what you'll say, that's very unlikely. Yeah, about as unlikely as a WoW player having no interaction with other players, markets and non-instanced content while playing WoW.

No, the EVE example would be a hell of a lot less likely since it doesn't lead anywhere, whereas you can progress through WoW quite nicely without any such interaction. After all, WoW is built to allow just that whereas EVE has systematically removed all such options.


xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers Likes received: 662	#1249 - 2015-09-04 14:07:46 UTC 1 Lucas Kell wrote: And I know what you'll say, that's very unlikely. Yeah, about as unlikely as a WoW player having no interaction with other players, markets and non-instanced content while playing WoW. but lucas,,,,,,,,, WOW sucks giant donkey balls.

Lan Wang

Princess Aiko Hold My Hand

Safety. Net

Likes received: 4,111

#1250 - 2015-09-04 14:11:46 UTC

Anize Oramara wrote:

Lan Wang wrote:

Anize Oramara wrote:

Lan Wang wrote:

Talking about misused terms and a complete lack of understanding what those terms means...

well enlighten me then

Check the last, I dunno, 40 pages?

well im not going to troll through 40 pages to find an answer i asked you to produce so maybe copy and paste it because these threads just end up as repeated information anyway

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Lucas Kell

Solitude Trading

S.N.O.T.

Likes received: 8,040

#1251 - 2015-09-04 14:11:51 UTC

Tippia wrote:

Yes it is. All of it is. Evasion is part of the competition. Even if you were to use the insanely myopic idea that PvP only entails combat, then it's still PvP since you're still trying to not be killed.

But that's not part of the mechanic, is it? Many miners mine every day and get not interaction from other players. Are you saying that even then, that's PvP. Shooting a rock is not PvP, and when someone shows up and kills you, they are not mining and neither are you when you fight back. They are two distinct activities.

Tippia wrote:

Correct. The NPC market in WoW does not work like the EVE market.

lol? So if you buy from an NPC in EVE, you've affected other players, yet if you buy from an NPC in wow, it only affected you. This is legitimately what you are saying?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell

Solitude Trading

S.N.O.T.

Likes received: 8,040

#1252 - 2015-09-04 14:12:52 UTC

xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:

Lucas Kell wrote:

And I know what you'll say, that's very unlikely. Yeah, about as unlikely as a WoW player having no interaction with other players, markets and non-instanced content while playing WoW.

but lucas,,,,,,,,, WOW sucks giant donkey balls.

I agree. That doesn't mean that an overly broad term can't be used to describe both EVE and WOW however.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Anize Oramara

WarpTooZero

Likes received: 885

#1253 - 2015-09-04 14:14:06 UTC

xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:

Lucas Kell wrote:

And I know what you'll say, that's very unlikely. Yeah, about as unlikely as a WoW player having no interaction with other players, markets and non-instanced content while playing WoW.

but lucas,,,,,,,,, WOW sucks giant donkey balls.

Eloquint but not. To expand on what Tippia said, you can progress and reach 'end game' (loose term in eve but not really in WoW) in WoW without much if any player vs player interaction. You'd be lucky to get past .05% of eve without any Player Vs Player interaction. Whats the number of systems again?

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Salvos Rhoska

Likes received: 3,071

#1254 - 2015-09-04 14:17:40 UTC | Edited by: Salvos Rhoska

Lucas Kell wrote:

That doesn't mean that an overly broad term can't be used to describe both EVE and WOW however.

Its not overly broad.

Read the following:

"Player(s) versus player(s), or PvP , is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants. This is in contrast to games where players compete against computer controlled opponents and/or players, which is correspondingly referred to as player versus environment (PvE)."

-https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player

This, in precise terms, defines PvP, and its unique characteristics as separate from PvE.

If anything involves two or more live participants in interactive (which all of EVE is) conflict (which I can append a definition to, if you are unfamiliar with it) , it is PvP.

By contrast, if it does NOT meet the criteria of the above, and is against a computer controlled opponent, then and only then is it PvE.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent

Lucas Kell

Solitude Trading

S.N.O.T.

Likes received: 8,040

#1255 - 2015-09-04 14:20:18 UTC

Tippia wrote:

OK, start a wow character and you're not allowed to touch any non-instanced content, nor interact with any other player or the market. Most instanced content you wouldn't even be able to reach because you'd need to level up to reach it. It would be insanely difficult to get anywhere like that.

Most players who play WoW effectively solo still do so in the public areas of the game, no different from a miner in EVE. A missioner in EVE even generates his own spawns, so that's even less impact on other players than a leveller in WoW.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lan Wang

Princess Aiko Hold My Hand

Safety. Net

Likes received: 4,111

#1256 - 2015-09-04 14:25:40 UTC

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Lucas Kell wrote:

That doesn't mean that an overly broad term can't be used to describe both EVE and WOW however.

Its not overly broad.

Read the following:

"Player(s) versus player(s), or , is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants. This is in contrast to games where players compete against computer controlled opponents and/or players, which is correspondingly referred to as player versus environment (PvE)."

-https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player

so whats killing afk players classed as?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Tippia

Sunshine and Lollipops

Likes received: 27,526

#1257 - 2015-09-04 14:27:02 UTC | Edited by: Tippia

Lucas Kell wrote:

But that's not part of the mechanic, is it?

Again, there's a reason why mechanics are a poor foundation for describing, much less categorising, gameplay.

Quote:

Many miners mine every day and get not interaction from other players. Are you saying that even then, that's PvP.

Of course. At the end of the day, they're still competing with every other player out to get ore or to kill a miner. Just because they got theirs first and/or avoided the confrontation does not mean the competition didn't happen — it just means that, this day, they did well.

Quote:

So if you buy from an NPC in EVE, you've affected other players, yet if you buy from an NPC in wow, it only affected you.

What happens to the NPC prices in EVE when you buy from them? Who is subject to these prices?
What happens to the NPC prices in WoW when you buy from them? Who is subject to these prices?

Quote:

It still can be done, and it still gets you somewhere. Gathering up the largest pile of useless NPC trash in EVE gets you nowhere and it still affects other players. Also, as mentioned, you will soon be subject to PvP while trying to get that ISK anwyay…

Lan Wang wrote:

so whats killing afk players classed as?

PvP. Afk or not, they're still players.

babyblue

Ascendance

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 4

#1258 - 2015-09-04 14:28:34 UTC | Edited by: babyblue

xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:

You are not unsubbed, you're still on the forums. you are paying for a game you no longer play and you dare say people like me, presumably the kind of personality recruited and retained easily, fill the game world.
at least i still play the game i pay for.

I'm here because i love this game, no other reason.

why are you still here?

I am unsubbed. IDK when it runs out. Maybe a week. But you're not making any sense. Why come to a discussion about why something isn't working out by saying 'I love it' when the discussion is about why other people don't?

Lucas Kell

Solitude Trading

S.N.O.T.

Likes received: 8,040

#1259 - 2015-09-04 14:28:42 UTC

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Its not overly broad.

Read the following:

Player(s) versus player(s), or , is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants. This is in contrast to games where players compete against computer controlled opponents and/or players, which is correspondingly referred to as player versus environment (PvE)."

-https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player

This, in precise terms, defines PvP, and its unique characteristics as separate from PvE.

If anything involves two or more live participants in interactive (which all of EVE is) conflict (which I can append a definition to, if you are unfamiliar with it) , it is PvP.

By contrast, if it does NOT meet the criteria of the above, and is against a computer controlled opponent, then and only then is it PvE.

Wikipedia, so obviously entirely factual. Honestly I'm surprised you didn't pick the bit that said "PvP can be broadly used to describe any game, or aspect of a game, where players compete against each other. In computer role-playing games" though that goes right towards my claim that the description is broad, not necessarily inaccurate.

Then of course there's this bit: "In computer role-playing games, PvP is sometimes called player killing or PKing.". So a player needs to be killed for it to be PvP?

Look further down and look at the classification section of it:
Classifications
Player killing
Anti Player Killing
Dueling
Flagging

I don't see any mining in there.

The thing is, this is how a lot of people see PvP, that it's one player killing another. Saying that EVE is entirely PvP undersells it since there's a huge variety of activities to take part in.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.


Jenn aSide Soul Machines The Initiative. Likes received: 16,192	#1260 - 2015-09-04 14:32:05 UTC Lan Wang wrote: so whats killing afk players classed as? Did it take a player to log in the toon that is now afk? If so: pvp.

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