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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1221 - 2015-09-04 13:39:31 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Unless that boar was in a private instance and you sell the loot to an NPC and use the gold to buy potions from an NPC or paid to fix your armor that was damaged in that instance.
I don't know of any private instances in WoW. Also, that exists in EVE. If I take courier missions to earn isk and I spend that isk on NPC items like skillbooks and blueprints, then I am having the same effect.

Hah private instances are a thing in WoW and in most MMOs. Plenty of them in GW2 that I can personally attest to for example. Also that courier mission? You can get ganked from point a to point B. Bam player interaction.
But all the time you don't get ganked, it's not PvP.

Also, see my other example. Rookie systems repeating rookie missions. People aren't actually allowed to do stuff to ya.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1222 - 2015-09-04 13:40:12 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
This is the truth. The problem is that some people HATE 're-using terms', so they create ever more terms to differentiate between things, usually unnecessarily.

The Statement "EVE is a pvp game" drives them nuts, because pvp describes something specific (player combat) and something non-specific (broader player interactions). They litteraly can't stand it, thus the new fangled term 'competative PVE'. But Competitive PVE is just PVP when you get right down to it. It's people (Player) competing against (Verses) other people (Player).

I have a buddy who works in my department's IT section, and he's a perfect example. If you say police meaning police officers or a police department, that's fine, but if you say "Police" in the more colloquial sense meaning "Law Enforcement as a whole" he actually loses his mind because "not everyone in Law Enforcement are police, there are special agents, troopers, deputy sheriffs, constables, marshals etc etc!!".

It boils down to personality driven preferences, no amount of arguing will ever change that. I just let them say "competitive pve" because it makes them feel better even if it makes me want to roll my eyes. What they really mean is "pvp"...
It's not a hatred of reusing terms, it's just dumb to try to be too broad when there are further categorisations. Consider what you are saying about your buddy, say you have a group of police officers, a group of federal agents and a group of marshalls all in a room. You want to ask someone to send the marshalls over, you aren't just going to say "Send toe police over here" are you?


See, there it is, you are rationalizing your preferences. But they are just your preferences, they are not superior or inferior to my preferences. I simply prefer to call a thing what I believe is it's best broad descriptor, you prefer more specific descriptions.



Quote:

The same thing is here. Sure, you can broadly throw a term around anything if you extend the definition enough, but there's clearly more granularity you have have in your descriptions that more accurately portray what you are talking about.

Sure, in the broadest sense shooting someone is PvP, and so is competing with them for ore, but one is what one would classically define as PvP, and the other is PvE with competition.


pvp is the simplest way to say it. Some of us prefer simply and straight forward to complicated and messy.
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#1223 - 2015-09-04 13:41:04 UTC  |  Edited by: xxxTRUSTxxx
Lucas Kell wrote:


Also, see my other example. Rookie systems repeating rookie missions. People aren't actually allowed to do stuff to ya.


man you are bored out of your head or stoned out of it,, can't decide which it is yet, perhaps both.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1224 - 2015-09-04 13:41:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lucas Kell wrote:
You can do the same in EVE.
No, you can't, because those aren't instances, and because not only is trading solely with NPCs not an option, but doing so affects other players. Oh, and players are allowed to go after you even in those systems, you know…

Quote:
Yes it does, see above.
No, see above. It seems your understanding of EVE is even worse than your understanding of WoW.

Quote:
Wrong.
Prove it. Show me a post where I gave that definition.

Quote:
You want to redefine terms to wrap around EVE then not have that same definition in other games.
You're confusing me with you.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1225 - 2015-09-04 13:41:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
I'd agree with the newbie systems thing if not for the fact that the ships and ammo and drones, etc. needed to run missions or mine or do most of anything are still sold by.... players! Also you can't get a lot of the skills needed to manufacture a lot of what you'll need without leaving the newbie systems.

Manufacturing itself as well is affected by other people in many ways (indexes, available slots, mineral costs, BPCs).

Oh right research to get BPCs form BPOs, again, means competing with other players for slots, or pos locations, etc.

etc.

etc.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1226 - 2015-09-04 13:44:34 UTC
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
that's how you're claiming that mining is PvP.


go look at codes killboards and tell me miners are not engaged in pvp. (pvp of the lowest form but still pvp)


thats not pvp its merely Player Killing (PK)

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Salvos Rhoska
#1227 - 2015-09-04 13:45:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
I think various definitions, viewpoints and arguments have been explored sufficiently in this ramble, to attempt and draw some preliminary conclusions and attempt to tie this all back to the original topic of player retention.



What have we learned?

1) It is evident that there is a schism between how people perceive PvP/PvE ont only in EVE, but overall.
Though the dissenting voices are a minority, it is reasonable that they nonetheless may represent a larger player segment both in and outside of EVE itself.

2) Validity of arguments to and fro aside, it is clear, to my mind atleast, that the concrete expression of this difference ingame between PvE and PvP in EVE, is a source of dissatisfaction for those who view it differently than the majority in this thread.

3) I am concerned, and I think other participants have aired this too, that new and old players are having difficulty accepting the essential core PvP nature of EVE. They expect something different, and frame their definitions differently. So they are understandably upset and dissatisfied when EVE doesnt turn out to meet their expectations and views.

4) I think player attrition due to this dissatisfaction, is more an issue of them having expected something conpletely different, and a natural shock when the reality is far more brutal. Its not the game that pisses them off in and of itself, its that the game was not what they expected and are used to understanding.

They are used to being able to build castles in the sandbox, but in EVE, some ******* comes along and not only kicks it over, but then squats and takes a huge steaming dump on its ruins to add insult to injury. This understandably needs some getting used to considering what many players are used to in other games.

5) Getting used to loss, and naked unadulterated player aggression, used to be a big thing in MMOs. But the current overarching game culture left that a decade ago. Even then though, it still took some getting used to. The immediate and natural reaction is getting fking pissed off and rant/rage so hard your neighbors consider calling the cops.

6) But you get used to it, and start to realize that it is exactly that risk, and the opportunity it provides to you too to do the same to others, that is whatbyou eventually realize is exactly what brings excitement, commitment and a visceral intimate experience that Minecraft never can.

7) Perhaps CCP could do more to stress this essential core PvP nature to players, new and old. Its conventionally market suicide, since the understanding and trend is that such risk will mean many people used to other conventional games in the sand, will not try EVE out of fear. But on the otherhand, this is exactly what has always been EVEs core of success, and a defining feature that has niched it so hard into the market that people still play it a decade later.

8) Inline with this, player competition in non-violent means is also a core feature of EVE. Perhaps more should be do be to increase competition across all boards of activity, from mining, to exploring, to missions, to incursions, to sov etc etc.



So in conclusion:

A) Make it clear, on absolutely no uncertain terms, that EVE will vigorously rub your face and brain against a cheese-grater the second you step into it.Really overstate it, so that there is no question about this, whatsoever.
Make it the "Here be dragons!" mark on the universal MMO map, where only the bold will go and the meak fear to tread.
This will attract many players looking for exactly that, and ensure that they are not dissatisfied due to their own false expectations.

B) Increase player competetiviness and interaction across the entire spectrum of EVE activities.
More risk, more competition in anything and everything conceivable!
These are both the core and unique selling points of EVE in an otherwise rather "safe"-style MMO market.
Use them, and exploit these strengths to their breaking point!
Then leave the rest to us, denizens of the sandbox. We'll take it from there, and pay youbfor the privilige.

C) Inversely, this will also help retain core players who are tired of EVE becoming easier and less risky.
They want MORE risk, and MORE competition. Give it to them, and they too will more readily stay.

So either way, CCP wins.
-More new players who understand (atleast superficially) what they are getting into, and dare to try it.

-EVEs concretion in the market as the undisputed end-boss of all MMOs.

-More Vet retention, as they exult in the glory of more risk and competition, which they love so much.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1228 - 2015-09-04 13:45:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lucas Kell wrote:
But all the time you don't get ganked, it's not PvP.
Yes it is. All of it is. Evasion is part of the competition. Even if you were to use the insanely myopic idea that PvP only entails combat, then it's still PvP since you're still trying to not be killed.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Any instances can be seen by your party or by people around you depending on the instance.
…in other words, they're private. Your instance is yours alone and no one can break into it to steal your stuff. Unlike in EVE.

Quote:
LOL, yet in wow you're not?
Correct. The NPC market in WoW does not work like the EVE market.

Lan Wang wrote:
thats not pvp its merely Player Killing (PK)
Are you saying that miners are not players? Because otherwise, it's most definitely PvP.
babyblue
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#1229 - 2015-09-04 13:46:24 UTC
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
babyblue wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

It boils down to personality driven preferences, no amount of arguing will ever change that. I just let them say "competitive pve" because it makes them feel better even if it makes me want to roll my eyes.


I don't know what the discussion is about to be honest. Eve just isn't a very good game. That's really all there is to it.


door is that way >>>>>>>

bye bye

only a fool pays for something he doesn't like.


I'm unsubbed, thanks. This is part of the problem though isn't it. Any criticism over and above some pointless and ultimately moot discussion about some trivial game rule or mechanic isn't tolerated. And people like you, presumably the kind of personality recruited and retained easily, fill the game world.

I lasted on and off since beta 6 but mostly by avoiding interacting with players like you. No offence of course. You make Eve what it is, don't you? And what is that? Quite a mediocre video game.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1230 - 2015-09-04 13:47:03 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
that's how you're claiming that mining is PvP.


go look at codes killboards and tell me miners are not engaged in pvp. (pvp of the lowest form but still pvp)


thats not pvp its merely Player Killing (PK)

They are not engaged in PvP, they are subject TO PvP. Unless they managed to get drone damage on you, then they're kinda engaged in PvP.

But yea, definitely hot Player versus Player action happening

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#1231 - 2015-09-04 13:48:01 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
that's how you're claiming that mining is PvP.


go look at codes killboards and tell me miners are not engaged in pvp. (pvp of the lowest form but still pvp)


thats not pvp its merely Player Killing (PK)


hahahaha funny. still pvp
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1232 - 2015-09-04 13:49:03 UTC
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
that's how you're claiming that mining is PvP.


go look at codes killboards and tell me miners are not engaged in pvp. (pvp of the lowest form but still pvp)


thats not pvp its merely Player Killing (PK)


hahahaha funny. still pvp


its not though pvp and pk are 2 different things

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#1233 - 2015-09-04 13:49:17 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
that's how you're claiming that mining is PvP.


go look at codes killboards and tell me miners are not engaged in pvp. (pvp of the lowest form but still pvp)


thats not pvp its merely Player Killing (PK)

They are not engaged in PvP, they are subject TO PvP. Unless they managed to get drone damage on you, then they're kinda engaged in PvP.

But yea, definitely hot Player versus Player action happening


oh please stop, player vs player! regardless of the outcome, you smoking the same shite lucas is?
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#1234 - 2015-09-04 13:50:07 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
that's how you're claiming that mining is PvP.


go look at codes killboards and tell me miners are not engaged in pvp. (pvp of the lowest form but still pvp)


thats not pvp its merely Player Killing (PK)


hahahaha funny. still pvp


its not though pvp and pk are 2 different things


show me where you got your PK term from,, never heard it before.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1235 - 2015-09-04 13:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lan Wang wrote:
its not though pvp and pk are 2 different things
The only difference is consent (and possibly outcome). Beyond that, you can't have PK without PvP.

xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
show me where you got your PK term from,, never heard it before.

It's been around in MUDs since the birth of… well, multiplay. It gained more widespread use through The Realm and Ultima Online. It has since been largely obsoleted by the PvP term since there's usually little point in PvP if it can't lead to PK, and since it became more important to distinguish between PvP and non-PvP servers and games.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1236 - 2015-09-04 13:52:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
its not though pvp and pk are 2 different things
The only difference is consent (and possibly outcome). Beyond that, you can't have PK without PvP.

Exactly, that's kind of Eve's thing, consent (or lack thereof) in everything you do.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#1237 - 2015-09-04 13:55:43 UTC
Decline in numbers... starting to turn into,,,,,,,,, blah blah blah,, where's the OP,, the little fecking troll.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1238 - 2015-09-04 13:57:42 UTC
PvP: Player vs. Player
A fight between players or groups of players.

PK: Player Killing
The murder of one player by another for grief, amusement or material gain.

its like saying a serial killer is a soldier...

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1239 - 2015-09-04 13:58:46 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Yes it is. All of it is. Evasion is part of the competition. Even if you were to use the insanely myopic idea that PvP only entails combat, then it's still PvP since you're still trying to not be killed.


Exactly.

Expanding on what i've been saying, personality/preference plays a role. People like me (PVErs who use a pvp mentality to stay safe) have fewer problems than the people who see a distinction between pve and pvp (and thus don't understand when they are out in high sec mining "minding their own business" they are in a pvp environment, and the way for them to 'pvp' would have been to fit properly, watch local, use d-scan and mine in a protective group etc etc.

Gankers hone in on that unawareness like rats on limburger, the problem isn't the ganker, it's the mindset of people in that activity.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1240 - 2015-09-04 13:59:05 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
PvP: Player vs. Player
A fight between players or groups of players.

PK: Player Killing
The murder of one player by another for grief, amusement or material gain.

its like saying a serial killer is a soldier...

Talking about misused terms and a complete lack of understanding what those terms means...

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3