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Hypothetical Discussion - EVE Futures Contracts Specifications
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Ghoest
#21 - 2012-01-03 16:38:20 UTC
Hexxx wrote:
Ghoest wrote:
Hexxx wrote:


Are you actually being serious? How did people prove their identity back in the early days of banks and stock markets, circa mid/late-1400's? Fingerprints? DNA? Social Security cards? Forgery was rampant, easier than it was now, and in terms of your identity....are you really suggesting it was so hard to re-invent yourself?

To the latter point, there is a reason why we have the phrase "A pound of flesh". Twisted



This whole history thing and general concepts of the way the world worked befor the 90s are mystery to you arent they.


I'm looking at the last 500 years of banking, bonds, and stock markets. What are you looking at?


Perhaps we are looking at the same history. The difference is that either you dont understand it or that you are simply falsifying it.

Since the dawn of laws - fraud has been illegal. People tried to do it and the legal system fought back.
IN EVE FRAUD IS LEGAL.l.

Since the dawn of time people who made loans and investments have kept tabs on their clients. Many try to run but they are also chased.
This is impossible in EVE.

The 2 key forces in all of history that have have made investment(outside of close friends) viable do not exist in EVE.

You are clueless noob who doesnt understand that this is more important that everything else with respect to investment.


Wherever You Went - Here You Are
Hexxx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-01-03 16:58:17 UTC
Ghoest wrote:
Hexxx wrote:
Ghoest wrote:
Hexxx wrote:


Are you actually being serious? How did people prove their identity back in the early days of banks and stock markets, circa mid/late-1400's? Fingerprints? DNA? Social Security cards? Forgery was rampant, easier than it was now, and in terms of your identity....are you really suggesting it was so hard to re-invent yourself?

To the latter point, there is a reason why we have the phrase "A pound of flesh". Twisted



This whole history thing and general concepts of the way the world worked befor the 90s are mystery to you arent they.


I'm looking at the last 500 years of banking, bonds, and stock markets. What are you looking at?


Perhaps we are looking at the same history. The difference is that either you dont understand it or that you are simply falsifying it.

Since the dawn of laws - fraud has been illegal. People tried to do it and the legal system fought back.
IN EVE FRAUD IS LEGAL.l.

Since the dawn of time people who made loans and investments have kept tabs on their clients. Many try to run but they are also chased.
This is impossible in EVE.

The 2 key forces in all of history that have have made investment(outside of close friends) viable do not exist in EVE.

You are clueless noob who doesnt understand that this is more important that everything else with respect to investment.




You are both right and wrong...fraud is generally illegal everywhere (except Nigeria, where it accounts for the largest export) however a law is generally only effective when it's enforced. What you're getting at here, if I may assist you in your argument, is that a "law" cannot be enforced in EVE. True. However, there are very few laws which can be enforced 100% of the time, and many that go unenforced for reasons ranging from lack of oversight to the simple inability to identify the offender.

EVE most closely resembles an anarcho-capitalist society. What this means in general terms is that there is no "state law" beyond mutually agreed upon "contracts". There is no "State" in the traditional sense. Very little of history can point to a working anarcho-capitalist society actually existing....outside of Iceland between 930 and the mid-1200's A.D. How's that for irony?

But back to the point here...

I've generally refuted every point you've made on why investing can't exist in EVE. I've cited history, precedence, and examples. You've countered none of them in any detailed fashion, instead you've stuck to making generalizations. Perhaps that's good enough for you. If I've made a false claim, let me know which one. If you think I don't understand history, I would also be interested in know where my "intrepretation" is erred.
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
#23 - 2012-01-03 18:36:36 UTC
I was going to jump in here, but I think we have it covered in the other thread.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#24 - 2012-01-03 20:57:09 UTC
You guys don't see where the real issue is and just peak each at other.

Trust and identity are easily fixed by escalating up to the next Trusted Guy (eventually up to Chribba).

I mean, it's hard and unreliable to trust anyone in EvE but it can be done.

Real time spot pricing instead is very very hard in EvE. It's required for futures typical continuous margin check. That's the one way to have small margin bonds that are a fraction of the contract.

Leverage too is quite hard to achieve, yet - with just 2 decimals and generally small price velocity for most items - it would be almost mandatory.

Finally, liquidity. There's no functional market without liquidity and EvE primary markets are already illiquid as is, the derivatives would be a nightmare full of gaps and peaks. At the same time, due to the lack of real time data feed, it'd be totally hard to implement bilateral arbitrage to reconcile derivatives and underlying.


In the end I think best derivative for EvE would be to just settle down for forwards. Much less hassle, they could be done right now - if anyone bothered to that is.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Ghoest
#25 - 2012-01-03 21:27:15 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Trust and identity are easily fixed by escalating up to the next Trusted Guy (eventually up to Chribba).




You cant escalate in a pool of 1. Get a clue.

Wherever You Went - Here You Are
Hexxx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2012-01-03 21:30:41 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
You guys don't see where the real issue is and just peak each at other.

Trust and identity are easily fixed by escalating up to the next Trusted Guy (eventually up to Chribba).

I mean, it's hard and unreliable to trust anyone in EvE but it can be done.

Real time spot pricing instead is very very hard in EvE. It's required for futures typical continuous margin check. That's the one way to have small margin bonds that are a fraction of the contract.

Leverage too is quite hard to achieve, yet - with just 2 decimals and generally small price velocity for most items - it would be almost mandatory.

Finally, liquidity. There's no functional market without liquidity and EvE primary markets are already illiquid as is, the derivatives would be a nightmare full of gaps and peaks. At the same time, due to the lack of real time data feed, it'd be totally hard to implement bilateral arbitrage to reconcile derivatives and underlying.


In the end I think best derivative for EvE would be to just settle down for forwards. Much less hassle, they could be done right now - if anyone bothered to that is.



That's the elephant in the room...options were tried once and failed, but almost entirely because no one used them. Even if players got past the mechanical limitations and anemic incentives as you pointed out, people only seem to have real interest in the most basic instruments; stocks and bonds. Right now, I don't see futures taking off even with mechanics and risk overcome.

Admittedly, a lot of this is an academic exercise but still...it's the first step, so I'm limiting myself to constructive comments here.
Ave Volta
Perkone
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-01-03 22:26:50 UTC
As VV mentioned earlier, Block made an appeal to the MD community for participation in a proposed futures exchange on BSAC, but was abandoned due to lack of interest. This is the biggest barrier to entry IMO.

If you can garner enough interest in an out of game futures exchange, which means getting people to trust you, then the other barriers are just technical in nature. Not that those barriers are easy per se, but I think not so hard as the initial one.

Black Frog Logistics - Lowsec/Nullsec Logistics Services. Join ingame channel 'Black Frog' for more info.
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