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Marauders Need a Damage Bonus While Stuck in Bastion
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#21 - 2015-09-03 13:09:30 UTC
Comparing Marauders to Dreadnaughts is inherently flawed. Capital weapons are specifically balanced around needing to have a Siege Module running (or be fit on a Titan) in order to be effective; without it, a Dreadnaught will do Battleship-level DPS, or less, with absolutely abysmal application. Hardly what one would consider ideal. Battleships weapons, on the other hand, are not balanced around needing a Bastion Module in order to be effective. Adding damage bonus to the Bastion Module would imbalance Marauders relative to other battleships.

Now, the other thing about Dreadnaughts is that they get a limited number of weapons, much like Marauders, but they get no special hull bonuses to make up for this shortcoming. That's part of what the Siege Module does. If you want to add a Siege Module-like damage bonus to the Bastion Module, you'd first need to remove the 100% weapon damage bonus that each Marauder hull gets in order to maintain consistency. Are you really willing to make Marauders as useless out of Bastion as Dreads are out of Siege? I'm certainly not.


I still do level 4s on occasion, and my preferred ship is a Null Blaster Kronos. I have never wanted for DPS (still over 800 at 40km, with blaster tracking), even in a reasonably tanky, non-bling fit. I'd say that Marauders are in a really good place right now and certainly don't need any buffs.

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Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-09-03 13:25:59 UTC
+1 for op'ing the fck out of marauders Cool

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2015-09-03 14:11:34 UTC
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:

I would but that particular Goonie is well known for trolling, so why should I respond when all the Goonie is gonna do is contest with another troller.


Now that your GRRRing is done, can you answer the question?

What makes you believe you deserve to get kills when solo if the opposition is supported by multiple logi?
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#24 - 2015-09-03 14:31:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:

I would but that particular Goonie is well known for trolling, so why should I respond when all the Goonie is gonna do is contest with another troller.


Now that your GRRRing is done, can you answer the question?

What makes you believe you deserve to get kills when solo if the opposition is supported by multiple logi?



Because they paid a billion + isk.....that means it must be uber against all to some for some odd reason.


Abd becuase a dread would survive and prosper in this situation, at least in their mind. Lone dread getting gang banged, siege or no siege its dying. Best it can hope for is no dic's on call and that it gets that one lucky break not tackled at end of cycle to gtfo. Attackers bored enough.....the fuel is gonna run out at some point. No siege for you at that point. Smarter attackers may just nos/neut refit fast and drain its ass and pop goes the weasel.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#25 - 2015-09-03 15:26:06 UTC
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Nope.

CCP rise said the idea behind marauders is uber tank.
For dps look at pirate battleships.


He said that? So they're working as intended?............I should've just trained for Dreads.....



Forgive me it was CCP Ytterbium

Quote:
This also provides a stepping stone between sub-capitals / capital and their various siege / triage operation. It is noteworthy to remember we don't necessarily want them to out-damage or go faster than Pirate Battleships - instead, they tank and project damage better.

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unidenify
Deaf Armada
#26 - 2015-09-03 17:12:03 UTC
You know what I want to see for Marauder?
one more skill add to requirement for Bastion, by make it require to have Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration level 1 to use T1

Then introduce T2 Bastion that give 35% more on each stats (40% resist, 135% shield/armor amount, 33.75% to range) with requirement of Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration 5. (If balance issue, may make it so T2 is required to consume fuel while T1 don't)
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-09-03 17:18:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
unidenify wrote:
You know what I want to see for Marauder?
one more skill add to requirement for Bastion, by make it require to have Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration level 1 to use T1

Then introduce T2 Bastion that give 35% more on each stats (40% resist, 135% shield/armor amount, 33.75% to range) with requirement of Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration 5. (If balance issue, may make it so T2 is required to consume fuel while T1 don't)


Fun fact, they didn't put the requirement of tactical weapon reconfiguration because the way the skill is made, you would literally spawn stront in your hold.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those P

Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#28 - 2015-09-03 17:27:15 UTC
yes I remember this talk, then they decide on one of science skill which I immediate train to 5 before its release. they decide to drop it

go figure.

I kindly want to see T2 bastion but need to have slight higher skill requirement than T1. just like other T1/T2 modules
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2015-09-03 18:05:00 UTC
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
just a modest 50% weapon damage bonus to Marauders while using Bastion.


But the turret Marauders already get a damage bonus... they get +25% to optimal range / falloff. That means you can shoot the same distance you could before while using a higher damage, shorter ranged ammo. You also get the _huge_ immunity to ECM, damps and tracking disruption, which is a pretty major offensive buff.

Just because it's not a damage multiplier doesn't mean it's not a damage bonus.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#30 - 2015-09-03 18:13:29 UTC
xttz wrote:
Just because it's not a damage multiplier doesn't mean it's not a damage bonus.

Bonuses to application or endurance are damage bonuses, they're just not as obvious in EFT. Roll

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2015-09-03 18:16:44 UTC
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
Salutations again everyone. Another idea begin bugging me when I was playing with EFT and started to notice the HUGE damage spike the Dreads

It's not a dreadnought.

I stopped reading that far in. Sorry.



edit: tracking

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#32 - 2015-09-03 18:35:53 UTC
It's highly unlikely that you're going to see any battleship exceed the damage of the Federate, Imperial, State or Tribal ships.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#33 - 2015-09-03 19:00:51 UTC
Working as intended.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

unidenify
Deaf Armada
#34 - 2015-09-03 20:52:58 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
It's highly unlikely that you're going to see any battleship exceed the damage of the Federate, Imperial, State or Tribal ships.


strange thing about a missile BS is that almost all BS do a exactly same raw dps when pilot have level 5 BS skill.

Only Barghest and Typhoon Fleet would do more raw dps

Barghest > Typhoon Fleet > Golem = SNI = RNI = Raven = Typhoon

*assume all have same number of BCS

In my opinion, Golem don't really need to do a more raw dps than Barghest or Typhoon Fleet since it has an excellent bonus for range and super TP to ensure that it can apply full of its dps against target.

What Marauder should have is
Strong Tank
Excellent application

For this, I consider it is fair that Marauder do less raw dps than Pirate BS.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#35 - 2015-09-03 20:54:21 UTC
Samillian wrote:
No Marauders really don't need an extra damage bonus, especially as properly fit and used they can solo many level 5s efficiently.

What Marauders really need is for Vargurs and Golems not to be the only effective choices in there class.

funny, the vargur and golem are the two marauders I don't usually fly.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2015-09-04 00:27:23 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Yes but in the meantime for everyone else not having a cap fleet to drop, is utterly boned.

It's a bad idea - I understand why you think they need help but the problem is how hard they scale with bling, drugs and links. It wouldn't be healthy.


The SP requirements of Marauders will prevent extremely large scale use of them. There's a reason 100+ man Tengu fleets are a thing and 100+ man Vulture fleets are not.

The last time I looked up these numbers, about a year ago, it was around 15-17% of characters that even had the SP to undock a Marauder, and these numbers were heavily biased towards the Golem, which due to missiles is the least likely to be good in large fleets. A Marauder fleet will require a unified doctrine of everyone in the same ship, and if you're looking at the Paladin or Vargur you're facing the fact that maybe 3-4% of the playerbase can even undock the thing, and the number with the SP to actually fly it effectively will necessarily be even lower than that.
Sandrilla Sastrum
Doomheim
#37 - 2015-09-04 01:30:32 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Comparing Marauders to Dreadnaughts is inherently flawed. Capital weapons are specifically balanced around needing to have a Siege Module running (or be fit on a Titan) in order to be effective; without it, a Dreadnaught will do Battleship-level DPS, or less, with absolutely abysmal application. Hardly what one would consider ideal. Battleships weapons, on the other hand, are not balanced around needing a Bastion Module in order to be effective. Adding damage bonus to the Bastion Module would imbalance Marauders relative to other battleships.

Now, the other thing about Dreadnaughts is that they get a limited number of weapons, much like Marauders, but they get no special hull bonuses to make up for this shortcoming. That's part of what the Siege Module does. If you want to add a Siege Module-like damage bonus to the Bastion Module, you'd first need to remove the 100% weapon damage bonus that each Marauder hull gets in order to maintain consistency. Are you really willing to make Marauders as useless out of Bastion as Dreads are out of Siege? I'm certainly not.


I still do level 4s on occasion, and my preferred ship is a Null Blaster Kronos. I have never wanted for DPS (still over 800 at 40km, with blaster tracking), even in a reasonably tanky, non-bling fit. I'd say that Marauders are in a really good place right now and certainly don't need any buffs.



I see and thank you for the non-provocative response. It was very constructive and convincing. I'll start to look more closely at Dreads now.
Sandrilla Sastrum
Doomheim
#38 - 2015-09-04 01:51:57 UTC
unidenify wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
It's highly unlikely that you're going to see any battleship exceed the damage of the Federate, Imperial, State or Tribal ships.


strange thing about a missile BS is that almost all BS do a exactly same raw dps when pilot have level 5 BS skill.

Only Barghest and Typhoon Fleet would do more raw dps

Barghest > Typhoon Fleet > Golem = SNI = RNI = Raven = Typhoon

*assume all have same number of BCS

In my opinion, Golem don't really need to do a more raw dps than Barghest or Typhoon Fleet since it has an excellent bonus for range and super TP to ensure that it can apply full of its dps against target.

What Marauder should have is
Strong Tank
Excellent application

For this, I consider it is fair that Marauder do less raw dps than Pirate BS.


In this case, I'd like to follow up on your T2 Bastion idea and give the Marauders some cap warfare resistance so they can actually use their tanks longer than one bastion cycle when under heavy neut pressure.
Sandrilla Sastrum
Doomheim
#39 - 2015-09-04 02:04:30 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Yes but in the meantime for everyone else not having a cap fleet to drop, is utterly boned.

It's a bad idea - I understand why you think they need help but the problem is how hard they scale with bling, drugs and links. It wouldn't be healthy.


The SP requirements of Marauders will prevent extremely large scale use of them. There's a reason 100+ man Tengu fleets are a thing and 100+ man Vulture fleets are not.

The last time I looked up these numbers, about a year ago, it was around 15-17% of characters that even had the SP to undock a Marauder, and these numbers were heavily biased towards the Golem, which due to missiles is the least likely to be good in large fleets. A Marauder fleet will require a unified doctrine of everyone in the same ship, and if you're looking at the Paladin or Vargur you're facing the fact that maybe 3-4% of the playerbase can even undock the thing, and the number with the SP to actually fly it effectively will necessarily be even lower than that.


Very good point, sir. I haven't even considered that fact since everytime I'm in Apanake I see a Marauder undock every 30 seconds or so.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#40 - 2015-09-04 02:14:34 UTC
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
I see and thank you for the non-provocative response. It was very constructive and convincing. I'll start to look more closely at Dreads now.

Any time. I don't often troll, but when I do, I limit it to C&P.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs