Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Applying to fast target is also harder which mean logi are that much more effective.

Oh, i get it, You intend to twist your statement ex post facto till it fits some niche encounter where your statement MIGHT apply depending on pilot skill, ship set up and a whole host of other factors, in which you get to dictate all the variables so that your bogus broad generalization finally applies.

Sad....

Why not take the high road and just admit you were and remain wrong.

EFT comparison with no skills, or modules factored, using t2 ammo only on un-bonused ships.
Targeting a Merlin with no skills, mods, or props. Merlin will be at max transversal. (no resists factored)

Mind you, I'm only factoring t2 ammo(obviously t2 guns) to make this easier, and I'm only factoring the heaviest class of medium guns. I will factor rapid lights, as they're really the only weapon class used on cruiser size missile boats, and heavies and hams require too high fitting costs. However, I will factor heavies and hams despite this.

Damages and ranges are a rough estimate as EFT isn't displaying properly for me.

T2 short range, damage ammo
425mm AC - no damage within 3km. max dps 1.6 @ 10.5km
heavy neutron blaster - no damage within 2.8km. max dps 1.1 at 6.2km
HAM(rage) - 1.4dps out to 7.4 km
heavy pulse - No damage within 5km. max dps 1.5 @ 11.5km


t2 short range, ranged ammo
AC - no damage within 3km. max dps 3.6 @ 13km
blaster - no damage within 3km. max dps 4.1 @ 10.2km
ham(jav) - 1.8 dps out to 13.5
puls - no damage within 5km. max dps 7.1 @ 18km
I say AC wins again

T2 ranged, damage ammo (fury missile)
720mm - No damage within 10km, max dps 1.2 @ 27km
250mm - No damage within 10km, max dps .9 @ 24km
HML (fury) - .8 dps to 21km
Beam - no damage within 7km, max dps 1.1 @ 16km

T2 ranged, ranged ammo (precision missile)
720mm - .1 dps @ 73km
250mm - .1 dps @ 68km
HML(precision) - 3 dps @ up to 14km
Beam - .2 dps @ 52km

Rapid light
Fury - 7dps up to 14km
Precison - 13.2 dps up to 9.3 km


Now, just for giggles, we'll make the Merlin stationary.

short range, high damage
AC - 19dps up to 2.5km. max range around 18km
Blaster - 26dps up to 2.7km. max range 10km
Rage - 4dps up to 7.5km
Pulse - 21dps up to 6.5km. max range around 17km

short range, ranged ammo
AC - 14dps up to 2.5km. max range around 32km
Blaster - 19dps up to 5km. max 25km
Jav - 4dps up to 13.5km
Pulse - 15dps up to 17.5km. max around 31km

Long range, high damage (fury)
Arty - 15dps up to 6km. max around 42km
Rail - 20dps up to 7.8km. max around 41km
Fury - 3dps up to 21km
Beam - 21dps up to 6km. max 30km

long range, long range ( precision)
Arty - 9 dps up to 44km. max around 80km
Rail - 11 dps up to 52km. max around 80km
Precision - 4 dps up to 14km
Beam - 12 dps up to 44km. max 67 km.

Rapid
fury - 11 dps 14km
Precision - 13 dps 9.4km

Here, I'll simply note the unbonused dps (weapon - short range - long range)
AC - 19dps - 14dps
Blaster - 26dps - 18dps
Pulse - 21dps - 15dps
Hams - 21dps - 14dps

Arty - 15 - 9
Rail - 20 - 11
Beam - 21 - 12
Hml - 12(precision) - 16

Rapid light - 13 - 19


while projectiles have the lowest damage, they also have middle ground tracking/range with damage selection.
The real question I pull from this is, why do missiles suck?????

I mean, rapid lights are the only missiles worth using on a cruiser due to application and fitting costs... Though, their long reload time makes damage selection worthless (you'll die before you reload new ammo) and it's middle of the road damage and range make it a less optimal choice.

It does go to show that HMLs and Hams are virtually useless on a cruiser... They're basically intended for BCs.
Though, if you noticed, I used the highest size turrets at their greatest comparison, which also don't fit on cruisers very well.
Reduced size gives reduced range and damage, but gives greater tracking, which balances dps, if not increases it.

As far as the topic of projectiles goes.
No cap consumption, lower fitting costs, high alpha, middle ground tracking, double the falloff (meaning less optimal range, but higher damage throughout falloff ranges). As well as damage selection.
Not to mention they're typically fit on the most versatile ships, with the highest general velocities and/or agility for their respective classes.
That's another thing you fail to factor. You can't just factor damage done. You must also factor the ship it's on.
Rupture and stabber may not be the highest dps cruisers out there, but they got a lot of other things going for them.

Auto Cannons cannot project damage in any way that makes them viable in the roles they are meant to fulfill.

In this DPS graph we have three anti-tacklers, all performing the same role and using the various weapons systems, IE AC, Pulse and RLML. Mind you these graphs are all at 0km-50km with a 0 speed and transversal

http://i.imgur.com/Aa9N6qf.png

Vaga is double Gyro, double TE, double Ambit Rig
Nomen is triple heat sink double locus
Caracal is triple BCU

As you can see the autocannons (Vaga are doing 80% of their dps at point range )~25k) and the further the range the harder they fall off. So at 40k they are doing only 35% of their dps.

Now the pulses on the nomen are applying full damage out to almost 50k before it starts falling off, and the caracal pushes it's damage even further.

See the disparity in projection? It's horrendous, and when you factor in speed and sig the situation grows exponentially worse. They essentially become insignificant and meaningless. Even with speed/sig/tracking pulses and rlml are still able to apply meaningful damage out to good ranges while anything at or past point range on the vagabond is only producing 3/4rds the damage before mitigation (ie speed, sig, transversal) .

Adding all of this together as an anti-tackler you NEED to be able to remove fast tackle before they get within 30k of you because they are moving so fast (due to speed creep etc) and if they are not removed prior to reaching this distance your role has not been fulfilled. and you or your gang/fleet members will get pointed/scrammed/webbed.

The base issue is that projectiles as a platform operate entirely in falloff. Prior to tracking enhancer nerf your "falloff" was around 64km which meant you could apply meaningful damage out to approximately 35k which is manageable. Now that the end of their falloff is under 40k they cannot project damage worth ****.

You cancerous autists need to look at graphs and reality instead of pulling arbitrary and imaginative statistics from your asses and instead pull your head from your ass and use logic and facts.

Real scenarios and Graphs don't lie.

Pyfa, it's more accurate than EFT, Results will be similar though regardless of either program

By adding in the Thorax you are putting a non-kiting non anti-tackle platform onto the mix thus making the waters muddy. Blasters are supposed to be the be all and end all of brawling. CCP has made that very clear, also rail thorax outperforms autocannons at the antitackle role by a fair margin.

Your entire post and logic is nothing but a distraction from the topic at hand and is biased against kiting and for brawling (blasters). You're comparing hulls with completely different roles and hull bonuses. In your example only the Stabber and Caracal are bonused for range and meant to be anti-tackle. The hulls chosen for the original comparison all had similar range bonuses and the same role. Faction/t1/t2 doesn't really matter because we're comparing what % of possible dps can be applied at what range prior to mitigation mechanics. Fallof for autocannons post-nerf makes them mechanically weaker than other platforms performing the same role, and this is further amplified when mitigation comes into account.

The fact of the matter is that medium autocannons are unplayable as kiting and anti-tackle weapons system due to their current state of falloff application. Their ability to project damage is broken on the mechanical level. No matter how much you try and spin the topic or muddy the waters this is a fact. I used to fly Vagabonds almost exclusively, even after the TE nerf but it got to a point where I realized that a Navy Slicer was more effective at the Vagabond's job. I have to say, this is my final comment on the topic, I am not Jesus. I can't make the blind see.

Are we kindred brutors? I said the same thing.. spooky

You can't have RLML in the discussion and ignore reload time - it's silly.

What ACs do excel at, and I've not seen much chat around is shooting down sizes - certainly in the medium sizes - the damage difference between 180s vs 425 is not severe and the tracking is to die for, especially when you add a web.

Stabber fleets in particular, mulch frigates like there is no tomorrow. Yes, I know, RLMLs exist but I feel like that aspect has been missed from the debate so shouldn't be ignored.

I prefer my brawlers to not have neutable guns.

Anyway, I don't disagree they need a little something but let's not pretend they're heavy missile bad

It would be easy to go OTT here.

Luckily every gallente ship has 4 mids. Prop, point, web and CB. My hurricane died to 2 thoraxes that i couldnt neut out due to CB. My fleet phoon died to a gang with plated nomens that had CB that i couldnt shut off their scrams/guns with dual heavy neuts. Your cap arguement is invalid when you stick a CB there and eliminate the cap dependency of those guns.