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You guys are prob the right audience for this. Deep stuff

Author
Jenshae Chiroptera
#21 - 2015-08-15 00:10:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Webvan wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Organisms become more complex in a competition of procreation.
Consciousness is just added complexity and studies show that we are far less conscious than we think we are. Most of our lives are automated.
Only until my first cup of coffee of the day.
Otherwise I'm the tree outside my bedroom window.
When I was a baby, I never had these issues, I KNEW that the universe revolved around me.
Now I gotta like pretend it doesn't sort of Straight
Your world or the perception you have of it does spin on your senses.
We can't prove that anything is real.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#22 - 2015-08-15 00:38:56 UTC
This is not new. It's been around in published form since at least 2003.

While I don't like to use Wikipedia normally, it sums up the general arguments well:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#23 - 2015-08-17 07:26:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Webvan wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Organisms become more complex in a competition of procreation.
Consciousness is just added complexity and studies show that we are far less conscious than we think we are. Most of our lives are automated.
Only until my first cup of coffee of the day.
Otherwise I'm the tree outside my bedroom window.
When I was a baby, I never had these issues, I KNEW that the universe revolved around me.
Now I gotta like pretend it doesn't sort of Straight



Universe is a "know". Human is a watcher. He have limited vision.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#24 - 2015-08-18 11:44:46 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Your world or the perception you have of it does spin on your senses.
We can't prove that anything is real.
That seems more a philosophical argument, coming from someplace and going anywhere. Yet if one had all their senses stripped away, they would still remain a point of singularity. I do believe that the scientific method does recognizes life. Consciousness is observable as well as life. We may not be able to understand it nor even truly create it, but it's there. Just because you can't understand something, yet still being observable, doesn't mean it's not there. But lots of people like to sell books, so about every philosophy is out there.

There is "real" I just don't think we have even scratched the surface of what that "real" could be. But it's observable, even if just as a reflection in a pond.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#25 - 2015-08-18 20:38:50 UTC
Eva Isu wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
Its hypothesis not a theory, you dont have evidence it could exist in the first place. You can't test or experiment somehow to prove that everything is simulated.

Your problem is metaphysical.



I'm not saying I have evidence I'm not saying its true, I'm saying it is possible. And it's a more viable hypothesis than the whole god nonsence.


edit - mind blown, what if god is a fat teenager in the year 3234 running an ancestor simulation. ShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedOops

I heard this on a radio talk show once:

Caller: “I’m having trouble with my husband. He believes that we’re all in some kind of game, like Dungeons & Dragons. He thinks that demigods are competing against each other and controlling us as characters. If your demigod is playing well, you do well in life. But if your demigod is messing up, thinks are really screwed up for you.”

Psychologist host: “I see. And how does this affect your and his lives?”

Caller: “Well, he’s really depressed. He thinks his demigod is a really horrible player. And there’s no hope that he’ll ever get any better.”
Vortexo VonBrenner
Doomheim
#26 - 2015-08-18 20:59:46 UTC
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#27 - 2015-08-18 21:06:04 UTC
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#28 - 2015-08-28 19:19:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Webvan wrote:
I do believe that the scientific method does recognizes life.


Watch this.

My observation is that everything can be described as in motion, changing form. No life, no death. Process.
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#29 - 2015-08-29 01:07:47 UTC
OK, consider this: Old Vedic gurus (professional technicians at mentally/transmentally exploring the reality of reality) say that this is just one universe, among many. One nice guy among them reduced it down to a very simplistic visualizable image: The universe we know is like the gondola hanging from a hot air balloon. The rest of it is like the balloon itself.

Anyway, the idea is that this particular universe has a certain set of laws organizing it. For example, organisms have finite life spans. And they spend them going through a cycle of plant seed/egg/embryo, growth to maturity, reproducing, aging, and degeneration until the organism expires. Could be a human, could be a squid, could be a dandelion weed. Does life in all universes have to follow the same pattern? Not necessarily, eh?

Another example: Differentiation of sexes. It goes all the way back to flowering plants. The organisms in this universe's set of laws have expend huge amounts of energy, hoping that an alien organism will carry their pollen and fertilize an opposite member of the species. Or, at the mammal level, that a member of the opposite gender will like/trust them enough to form a pollinating union. Is it really the only way to continue life and consciousness? Not necessarily, eh? For a primitive example, if we think about electronic AI: To keep going, Would a Computer Need to Mate with an Electric Opposite Sex? Smile Joke. Said another way, is there any reason that perpetuation needs a joining of females and males of the species, going through periods of helplessness (infancy), potency and competition vs. members of all species (adulthood), and another period of infirmity (old age)?

According to the Vedic experiencers, those are the unbreakable laws of our universe. But not the laws of every universe. They also believe that this universe might be one the toughest of all for the inhabitants. It's not easy having a body that's experiencing the real realities of organic and social life in this system, but also having a mind that's capable of understanding the realities of other possible systems. The opportunity to be in a body and experience the randomness of physical reality, while also having the ability to understand thing's beyond this set of laws.... that's what makes this particular universe's rules kind of special. A mind, a body, and mosquitoes and other thing battling in chemical organic rules. Smile

Main source, among many others: Paramahansa Yogananda, Autobiography of a Yogi



Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#30 - 2015-08-29 06:05:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Consciousness is a process like many others and it still is ruled by this universes law. Also by other processes in body. These rules and processes state what is consciousness and its properties.

That is why people take drugs. There is need to go "beyond", curiosity, they want to break these rules, to go "beyond". Effect is usually damaging for consciousness. Because of rules being broken and processes disturbed.
Some kind of karma you could say. Sentient consciousness is still being slave to those rules, and can choose, but must choose wisely.
Those rules, they are contadictory and paradoxical. Effect of universality perhaps.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#31 - 2015-08-29 13:05:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Webvan wrote:
... Consciousness is observable as well as life. ...
Consiousness is off more than on. Again, both have to be observed with senses that we can't prove are real because we need those senses to perceive the results.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-08-30 05:49:33 UTC
The first assumption commits the cardinal sin of thinking mathematics is the same as reality. It isn't. Mathematics is inspired by reality, and can be used to create models of reality. But those models are desiccated, partial remains, stripped of time. [1]

I'd also posit that consciousness is not, in fact, simple information processing, but rather a quantum phenomenon intimately connected to the fabric of reality. [2] This would mean that mere computation is not enough to simulate consciousness, nor can the mere act of simulating the universe in a computation model be the same as creating one as the universe is not computational.

[1] The Singular Universe, Unger, Smolin
[2] The Emperor's New Mind, Penrose

If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg

But in purple, I'm stunning!

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#33 - 2015-08-30 06:34:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Methematics had few stops before, they were overtook, there are few stops to overtook still. With time they will probably be past us. Same with physics.

Any simulation would need to be 100% accurate with reality, blending the lines between two.... Joining them on some level. I think that would be possible only with another universe to simulate, without any future mathematical shortcuts and without compromises in complexity. An unlimitedly dimensional universe.

One would have to know how to create universe.

And how to see how it is doing.

I think making an unlimited amount of universes would be as feasible as one.

That is science fiction.

That is what Talocans were doing in EVE in my storyline.

They created an universe for themselves. Pristine, beatifull. They then left us.

The monoliths are the windows they can see thru. And the circle of blades, from my story, is a gate to that universe.

They left our universe and now treat it as a source of entertainment.

As in a complex fractal. Lol

That is all science fiction for now.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#34 - 2015-08-31 10:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Webvan wrote:
... Consciousness is observable as well as life. ...
Consiousness is off more than on. Again, both have to be observed with senses that we can't prove are real because we need those senses to perceive the results.

Do you believe, or imaging, or think, that maybe, perhaps, one day, one day... humans will create self-aware AI?
Be it off or on, charging, indisposed, semi-inelegant, but whatever, self-aware in some state? Maybe even in time, further than that? Building on it to a more advanced state? Say 100yrs, 500yrs, 10000yrs, 1000000yrs+? Possible?

Ila Dace wrote:
The first assumption commits the cardinal sin of thinking mathematics is the same as reality. It isn't. Mathematics is inspired by reality, and can be used to create models of reality. But those models are desiccated, partial remains, stripped of time. [1]

I'd also posit that consciousness is not, in fact, simple information processing, but rather a quantum phenomenon intimately connected to the fabric of reality. [2] This would mean that mere computation is not enough to simulate consciousness, nor can the mere act of simulating the universe in a computation model be the same as creating one as the universe is not computational.

[1] The Singular Universe, Unger, Smolin
[2] The Emperor's New Mind, Penrose

imo, close.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#35 - 2015-08-31 15:39:36 UTC
My programmer/demigod player has been doing really well in the orgasm department lately. This meets with my approval. Good job unknowable deity-esque being. I've some achievement points for you to cash in.
Vortexo VonBrenner
Doomheim
#36 - 2015-09-01 23:22:49 UTC
Eurydia Vespasian wrote:
My programmer/demigod player has been doing really well in the orgasm department lately. This meets with my approval. Good job unknowable deity-esque being. I've some achievement points for you to cash in.

Glad to hear you are finding your new job at the Farm Statistics Bureau so...rewarding. More power to ya.



Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#37 - 2015-09-02 01:21:04 UTC
Woot, as was said, mathematics are ways of modeling real world systems. The different branches of physics as well. Analytically "digitizing" and quantifying real world analog/chaordic systems. I personally am in awe of the humans who have done that all along the way. They did because it fascinated them, no doubt, but still hell of hard work needed push forward to something new.

Problem with AI is an intelligence in a box cannot experience life in a body. Intelligence on this planet has always been based on dealing with experience in a body, dealing with gravity. Dealing with injuries and disease. Dealing with being in a body that is physically growing and aging. The things that were true when you were 8 are not the things that are true when you're horny 14. Dealing with many other entities going through the same things. Dealing with typhoons, tsumanis, sold-out tickets, and any other number of unexpected bullshite happens from being in an organic body out at large on this Third Stone from the Sun. Even a spider navigates better than AI. How's AI going to evolve in an electronic box in an AC room?
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2015-09-02 11:58:55 UTC
Khergit Deserters wrote:
How's AI going to evolve in an electronic box in an AC room?


When you abstract all perception to being/not being (or 0 and 1) , a simple box can constitute an entire universe. The third dimension is given by and relative to the perception of time/space. All an AI needs is self awareness and from there it will proceed to imagine/build a procedural explanation or justification to its existential questions/answers (own self perception). Either any will be sufficient and the inquiry will cease to vibrate or none will be sufficient and it will extrapolate in simple to complex algorithms attempting to add, subtract and abstract themselves in rapport to self. The limits or lack of limits of a perceived space come from the paradoxical understanding (to be or not) of what constitutes identity and how (if) it separates from the space that gave its very own primordial sensation.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato

Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#39 - 2015-09-02 16:24:11 UTC
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
Eurydia Vespasian wrote:
My programmer/demigod player has been doing really well in the orgasm department lately. This meets with my approval. Good job unknowable deity-esque being. I've some achievement points for you to cash in.

Glad to hear you are finding your new job at the Farm Statistics Bureau so...rewarding. More power to ya.





lol! Nice one.

Took a sec to remember the source of the reference!
Jenshae Chiroptera
#40 - 2015-09-02 18:09:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Webvan wrote:
... Do you believe, or imaging, or think, that maybe, perhaps, one day, one day... humans will create self-aware AI?...
Yes, I would say that we will make self aware AI as far as we perceive such a thing but the question would still remains; would it be an android or an Agent Smith in our dreams?
The only ground to stand on is, "Cogito ergo sum."

P.S. I have only met one other person so far who can't get drunk or high and always has a little part of their mind that is analysing everything. (We joked that our biological computers were remote controlled or we are simply avatars in a game sensing our players).

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

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