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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#961 - 2015-09-01 20:50:44 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
...
How does a limited anonymity factor in the whole thing not being PvP. I could play a shooter or a racing game, where everyone is anonymous. As long as we're competing against each other and not against AI it is PvP.

As for not losing on the market ... that was explained already. No need to see an explosion to lose ISK on the market.

The point is to make a distinction between competitive PvE and PvP. The anonymity is what removes the identification of players. You know there are other players acting on the market, but you do not know who they are or where they are. You then do not think of the lottery as PvP just because you know it has lots of people in it who are all trying to win, do you?

Of course can you throw away your ISKs, trash your ship or lose it to an NPC. The loss alone does not make it PvP. Only when the loss was caused to you by another player is it PvP. If you then did something on the market that caused you a loss is it only self-inflicted (you never really wanted it anyway), but was not caused by another player. You got what you have asked for, which is fair and not a loss.


Lottery = 100% chance based . It's neither PvP nor PvE. Even if I knew all contestants, it wouldn't change a thing. What next on your list ? Beauty pageants ?

We have explained how one trader can manipulate the market or deny trades ... not going over this again.

Have you been around when some miners needed to have explained to them that the minerals they mined are not free just because they didn't spend isk to get them ? This discussion reminds me a lot of that. Opportunity cost is real.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Whitehound
#962 - 2015-09-01 20:51:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Where is the proof that you have lost or won? Over whom did you win or who made you lose?
At what?

What do you think we are talking about, Tippia? You have been replying to me all day. Did you already forget?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#963 - 2015-09-01 20:54:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Whitehound wrote:
What do you think we are talking about, Tippia?
We were talking about how your supposed competitive PvE had no PvE in it, defeating any attempt at distinguishing it from PvP, at which point you started asking completely unrelated and incoherent questions that need to be clarified.

So clarify them by answering the question: at what?
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#964 - 2015-09-01 20:55:59 UTC
I am starting to think Whitehound is merely trolling to get this thread locked and dropped off the front page. I know when I have won in my market niche: the opponent stops undercutting my prices and my margins return to normal.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#965 - 2015-09-01 21:02:23 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Just cancelled an account due for renewal in less than two weeks.

Will pay $60 to transfer the characters to active accounts. Ouch,

Won't affect the CUC at all.

This strikes me as interesting since the $20 option is now better than the 2 PLEX option.
Whitehound
#966 - 2015-09-01 21:08:25 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Lottery = 100% chance based . It's neither PvP nor PvE. Even if I knew all contestants, it wouldn't change a thing. What next on your list ? Beauty pageants ?

We have explained how one trader can manipulate the market or deny trades ... not going over this again.

Have you been around when some miners needed to have explained to them that the minerals they mined are not free just because they didn't spend isk to get them ? This discussion reminds me a lot of that. Opportunity cost is real.


Lottery is PvE, because the random event is usually an event within the environment (a spinning wheel, bouncing balls, etc.).

In market trading can players only improve upon their own position and only one player gets the best spot (not necessarily as players can choose different stations and market hubs are not always the best place, still ...). When a buyer will buy your items or when a competitor changes their orders is also chance based. There is no guarantee for a sell order to always go through.

For simplicity, let's assume only one player at a time can make a sale and that in a lottery there was only one winning ticket. How would you say is market trading different from a lottery with regards to PvP?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#967 - 2015-09-01 21:12:40 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Tippia wrote:
[quote=Whitehound]The point is to make a distinction between competitive PvE and PvP. ...

Where is the proof that you have lost or won? Over whom did you win or who made you lose?

I want names, dates and numbers or it did not happen.


Sorry, I have to protect my sources. I need to call my lawyer. I'm not saying anything without my lawyer.

Back on topic:

Winning / Losing doesn't always take a binary form of either winning or else losing. In war you can win a battle and lose the war.

For the market it's easier to imagine a backwater system low-sec, null-sec ... rather then Jita. Remember the example I gave with me selling shuttles in low-sec ? Me, selling all the shuttles I had on the market and then denying sales to the guy who had bought and relisted them ... I think that's a clear win for me.

There are billionaires who manage to do the same in an actual market-hub.

Basicall every profitable sale you make = you win
every profitable sale somebody else makes, by offering below your price = you lose, they win
every unprofitable sale you make = you lose even more

Keep in mind that you don't have to get scammed or type in a zero to many or to few. It's enough to overestimate demand or underestimate other traders capacity to list sell orders below your price or buy orders above your price.

If you don't believe us, head over to market discussions and as them Smile

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#968 - 2015-09-01 21:13:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Whitehound wrote:
Lottery is PvE, because the random event is usually an event within the environment (a spinning wheel, bouncing balls, etc.)
No, lottery is lottery — you're not competing against anything (except maybe the lottery company's greed, but honestly, it's not a competition — they've already won by design).

Quote:
In market trading can players only improve upon their own position and only one player gets the best spot (not necessarily as players can choose different stations and market hubs are not always the best place, still ...).
…and this competition between players makes it 100% PvP, since there is no “environment” (i.e. AI) part involved.

Quote:
How would you say is market trading different from a lottery with regards to PvP?
Market trading is a competition between players; a lottery is not a competition. This further demonstrates why the whole winner/lose thing, much less gain and loss, is not a particularly relevant component.
Throth
Doomheim
#969 - 2015-09-01 21:26:59 UTC
My last post since I finally have Eve installed and can delete this toon. My response is to the original poster from my perspective as to why I left Eve after over 10 years: I like PVE, and Eve always had a place for it. Slowly over time, to what seemed to me an attempt to keep PvPers and gankers happy, CCP stopped fighting against griefing and started allowing it. Safe PvE became less and less possible without taking great strides in protecting yourself from griefers. My last resort was hauling, but not in a player corp - because until recently Awoxxing would happen. So I had to stay in a NPC corp and do contracts... until Hypedunking. After an unsuccessful hyperdunking against my freighter, I realized that I'm just tired of where this game has gone. The idea of trusting no one while at the same time making in a world where you have to be able to rely on someone else to survive is illogical. Just reading the forums and reading how quick this community is to defend griefers and griefing says a lot about the quality of character this game retains. This game is not for me. I won't miss it for a second, and the community here won't miss me or anyone like me. Have fun scamming, exploiting and griefing each other. That's Eve's legacy now.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#970 - 2015-09-01 21:29:06 UTC
Again, so much for “experience”. Lol
Salvos Rhoska
#971 - 2015-09-01 21:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Whitehound wrote:
Lottery is PvE, because the random event is usually an event within the environment (a spinning wheel, bouncing balls, etc.)


Actually, that too is PvP, as long as there are other human participants.

If we are referring to choosing X numbers out of Y, which are then rolled out of a random spinning wheel, its technically PvP. All players are subject to the same environmental constraints and odds are equal. However if 2 players both get the same number of right numbers, the winnings are split between them, which means the players are, after all, in direct competition with each other for a finite resource. The amount of players hence directly affects the degree of winnings, through increased competition for those winnings, if they "play as good as you", by getting the same result right as you.

If we are referring to a raffle lottery, in which the more tickets you buy, the more your odds of winning increase, it is again PvP. By buying more tickets than other players, you remove those from the market, and increase your own competitive edge against theirs, towards a finite resource. Same also goes for scratchcard lottery, in which the choices of which cards you buy, remove those from the pool, and ultimately also removing winning tickets from the total available to other players. In both cases, if theoretically you buy ALL the tickets, or are the only participant, then only you win, meaning it is competitive based on other PLAYER participation (not on any non-human participant), in everycase where you have not bought them all, or are not the only player.

As to your point:

An example of a PvE lottery, is slot machines.
There you put in your money, and hit the button, and there is no competition for or division of your winnings by other players, and it is entirely determined between you and the artificial non-human random mechanism.
Whitehound
#972 - 2015-09-01 21:37:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
What do you think we are talking about, Tippia?
We were talking about how your supposed competitive PvE had no PvE in it.

And what did I tell you?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#973 - 2015-09-01 21:41:34 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Έχω την γλωσσική ικανότητα ενός σαλιγκάρι κήπο
Answer the question: at what?
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#974 - 2015-09-01 21:46:33 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Lottery = 100% chance based . It's neither PvP nor PvE. Even if I knew all contestants, it wouldn't change a thing. What next on your list ? Beauty pageants ?

We have explained how one trader can manipulate the market or deny trades ... not going over this again.

Have you been around when some miners needed to have explained to them that the minerals they mined are not free just because they didn't spend isk to get them ? This discussion reminds me a lot of that. Opportunity cost is real.


Lottery is PvE, because the random event is usually an event within the environment (a spinning wheel, bouncing balls, etc.).

In market trading can players only improve upon their own position and only one player gets the best spot (not necessarily as players can choose different stations and market hubs are not always the best place, still ...). When a buyer will buy your items or when a competitor changes their orders is also chance based. There is no guarantee for a sell order to always go through.

For simplicity, let's assume only one player at a time can make a sale and that in a lottery there was only one winning ticket. How would you say is market trading different from a lottery with regards to PvP?


Time to crack open economy 101.

The value of an item is not chance based. This is not a single player game with a market- fairy pulling random numbers out of a hat.

A market is by definition where offer and demand meet, the intersection of offer and demand being the price. The price is therefore not random but determined by what buyers are ready to spend and sellers are prepred to offer. This whole thing is not static either. You don't position yourself once and hope for the best. On the contrary, you change your offer according to what other sellers do. The eve market is not unlike a stock exchange.

Next thing you say that it's chance based when a competitor changes their offer. NO ! They don't roll the dice to decide what to do next. You may not be able to predict what others do, but it's not random what they do.

Actually I start to believe that you're trolling ... if so: well done, hat off to you.

Lottery is PvE, yeah that was funny.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#975 - 2015-09-01 21:47:58 UTC
Throth wrote:
My last post since I finally have Eve installed and can delete this toon. My response is to the original poster from my perspective as to why I left Eve after over 10 years: I like PVE, and Eve always had a place for it. Slowly over time, to what seemed to me an attempt to keep PvPers and gankers happy, CCP stopped fighting against griefing and started allowing it. Safe PvE became less and less possible without taking great strides in protecting yourself from griefers. My last resort was hauling, but not in a player corp - because until recently Awoxxing would happen. So I had to stay in a NPC corp and do contracts... until Hypedunking. After an unsuccessful hyperdunking against my freighter, I realized that I'm just tired of where this game has gone. The idea of trusting no one while at the same time making in a world where you have to be able to rely on someone else to survive is illogical. Just reading the forums and reading how quick this community is to defend griefers and griefing says a lot about the quality of character this game retains. This game is not for me. I won't miss it for a second, and the community here won't miss me or anyone like me. Have fun scamming, exploiting and griefing each other. That's Eve's legacy now.


Have fun in whatever games you play in the future Smile
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#976 - 2015-09-01 21:50:27 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
What do you think we are talking about, Tippia?
We were talking about how your supposed competitive PvE had no PvE in it.

And what did I tell you?


About 8 pages ago you made a statement that Tippa is challenging. You have not addressed Tippia's challenge and subsequently Tippia will keep returning to that point until you adequately reply. Attempting to move the discussion beyond that point will (and has) resulted in you believing the discussion was about a different topic than what Tippia is discussing. Raising new points will result in Tippia arguing those points while stating that you are shifting the goal posts.

I suggest you read back through the thread and see where you missed the link and address that post.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#977 - 2015-09-01 21:51:46 UTC
Lottery is actually a poor example in the general. One where a selection of numbers is chosen and anybody can select those are essentially competitive pve. True your share drops, but that is essentially a tie.

Stuff like a 50/50 can be PVP cause only one has a number. The person who buys more is a better chance of winning. Investment is the ammo.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Whitehound
#978 - 2015-09-01 21:54:48 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Actually, that too is PvP, as long as there are other human participants.

If we are referring to choosing X numbers out of Y, which are then rolled out of a random spinning wheel, its technically PvP. All players are subject to the same environmental constraints and odds are equal. However if 2 players both get the same number of right numbers, the winnings are split between them, which means the players are, after all, in direct competition with each other for a finite resource. The amount of players hence directly affects the degree of winnings, through increased competition for those winnings, if they "play as good as you", by getting the same result right as you.

No. You are implying that the players would somehow have a control over the outcome, which they do not. The split you have introduced in your lottery (not mine) is merely a detail of the randomness. There is no need to make a split and the winnings can just simply go to the first winning ticket. Nor did the players ever get a guarantee over the amount they will win or that they win at all. So even with a split is there no control, because not only is the winning number a random event, but the number each player has is often also random (unless you have a lottery where player can pick their own number, which all in the bigger picture will also just be a random number).

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Whitehound
#979 - 2015-09-01 21:57:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
What do you think we are talking about, Tippia?
We were talking about how your supposed competitive PvE had no PvE in it.

And what did I tell you?


About 8 pages ago you made a statement that Tippa is challenging. You have not addressed Tippia's challenge ...

Oh I have. This is also going on for more than 8 pages. You better start reading back. Tippia has so far conceded twice and I have stopped taking her seriously. She has repeatedly failed to provide proof and is refusing to answer my questions. Now she is answering in a language I cannot read. Roll I can only take that has her third concession.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#980 - 2015-09-01 21:58:05 UTC
Throth wrote:
My last post since I finally have Eve installed and can delete this toon. My response is to the original poster from my perspective as to why I left Eve after over 10 years: I like PVE, and Eve always had a place for it. Slowly over time, to what seemed to me an attempt to keep PvPers and gankers happy, CCP stopped fighting against griefing and started allowing it. Safe PvE became less and less possible without taking great strides in protecting yourself from griefers. My last resort was hauling, but not in a player corp - because until recently Awoxxing would happen. So I had to stay in a NPC corp and do contracts... until Hypedunking. After an unsuccessful hyperdunking against my freighter, I realized that I'm just tired of where this game has gone. The idea of trusting no one while at the same time making in a world where you have to be able to rely on someone else to survive is illogical. Just reading the forums and reading how quick this community is to defend griefers and griefing says a lot about the quality of character this game retains. This game is not for me. I won't miss it for a second, and the community here won't miss me or anyone like me. Have fun scamming, exploiting and griefing each other. That's Eve's legacy now.



No it's not. There are plenty of us not exploiting, scamming or griefing, but we understand that those things (and learning to fight against them) is what makes EVE great. You say you are 'tired of where the game has gone" but as the rest of us have told you, you are mistaken, the game has always been there, you simply ignored it (easy to do when you aren't even here most of the time).

It is good at least that you understand that EVE isn't for you, but that's where your smarts end. Good luck in whatever safe ego stroking entertainment you choose for your self, real PVErs will still be here thumbing our noses at the very same people who forced you out of a video game.

PS, could you take Lucas Kell with you? He can probably get you a trial to Elite, which he apparently likes more than EVE. Twisted