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Friendly reminder that autocannons are still terrible
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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
#1 - 2015-09-01 18:25:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Baali Tekitsu
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5462383#post5462383

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Increasing Choice in Projectile Ammo
We completely agree that the changes we're making to autocannons and barrage in Tiamat do not solve all the problems with projectile ammo. The fact that autocannons suffer virtually no penalty for using the shorter range T1 ammo as opposed to the longer range T1 ammo reduces the number of interesting choices available to players and the tracking bonused ammo only goes so far towards correcting that problem. Tiamat is not the end of the work we want to do on projectile weapons and their ammo.Big smile



Hope you didnt forget about that Mr. Fozzie!

Medium autocannons need more range on top. Especially in a times where they need to compete against rapid light missiles which do perfect applied damage out to whatever range the ship has.


EDIT

Not just medium autocannon, larges aswell. A Maelstrom will do more damage at point range with lasers than with autocannons. Looking a bit better for the tempest, but just a tiny bit.

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Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#2 - 2015-09-01 18:28:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5462383#post5462383

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Increasing Choice in Projectile Ammo
We completely agree that the changes we're making to autocannons and barrage in Tiamat do not solve all the problems with projectile ammo. The fact that autocannons suffer virtually no penalty for using the shorter range T1 ammo as opposed to the longer range T1 ammo reduces the number of interesting choices available to players and the tracking bonused ammo only goes so far towards correcting that problem. Tiamat is not the end of the work we want to do on projectile weapons and their ammo.Big smile



Hope you didnt forget about that Mr. Fozzie!

Medium autocannons need more range on top. Especially in a times where they need to compete against rapid light missiles which do perfect applied damage out to whatever range the ship has.


Wow, and only 100% wrong about missiles i guess thats....um....pretty close???

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
#3 - 2015-09-01 18:36:50 UTC
Except when shooting a Phantasm or 100MN T3s a RLML ship will apply 100% of its damage to any Cruiser while shooting faction ammo and without application mods.

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-09-01 19:07:08 UTC
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Except when shooting a Phantasm or 100MN T3s a RLML ship will apply 100% of its damage to any Cruiser while shooting faction ammo and without application mods.


You also didn't include stuff smaller than cruisers...
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#5 - 2015-09-01 19:20:09 UTC
Considering the top two ships on zkill at the moment are Svipul and Sabre, by a significant margin, somehow I don't think small autocannons really need that much adjustment, as at least two of the ships they get fit on are either still over the top good, the right ship for the dumb meta we have, or some combination of those.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2015-09-01 19:26:27 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Considering the top two ships on zkill at the moment are Svipul and Sabre, by a significant margin, somehow I don't think small autocannons really need that much adjustment


This.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#7 - 2015-09-01 19:30:42 UTC
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Except when shooting a Phantasm or 100MN T3s a RLML ship will apply 100% of its damage to any Cruiser while shooting faction ammo and without application mods.


what, missile that is designed to hit on a frigate have perfect application against bigger target?
No way!
Tash D'Angst
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2015-09-01 19:39:52 UTC
Agreed, OP.

The Small Guns do not seem to suffer as badly, in practice. (On paper, they're horrifying-- the DPS drop off is sooo steep.)

It's the Mediums that are the most problematic, as it relates to kiting/skirmishing. The DPS drop off, even with a bonused Falloff ship/ammo/mods, is way too steep after you're out of Optimal.


I'm tempted to say just buff the living crap out of the DPS output and watch the trickle down effect, but that turns brawling AC boats into Gods. (Save the 'cane cheers aside.)

I also assume that messing with the Falloff formula is off the table. Core code is the Holy Grail of "don't touch me" in these cases.

My push would be like the OP-- for an optimal range buff, putting 220's with Fusion/PP/EMP somewhere in the realm of 15km unbonused. Twin TE setups would get that close to 20km, which IMHO would be about right. Still far from Pulse application stats, but a true mid-range weapon as they seem to be intended.

I'd probably also give Barrage a tweak-- a slight optimal bump and a bigger increase to Falloff, giving you something like 40-45km into First Full Falloff. Not gonna be hitting very hard, but you can at least apply alongside your Omen/Nomen buddies.


Aaaaand just gonna leave this here:

Swap the Vagabond's HAC Bonus to Falloff with it's Cruiser Bonus to Shield Boost amount.
No reason why a Stabber should apply better without a 27 day train...
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
#9 - 2015-09-01 19:42:53 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Considering the top two ships on zkill at the moment are Svipul and Sabre, by a significant margin, somehow I don't think small autocannons really need that much adjustment, as at least two of the ships they get fit on are either still over the top good, the right ship for the dumb meta we have, or some combination of those.


Thats due to individual ship balancing more than anything.
I explicitly wrote MEDIUM AUTOCANNONS in the OP by the way.

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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-09-01 20:48:51 UTC
I would love to find a site with ship ranks, apart from top 10.

It seems a full list would simplify the arguments on what's bad and what's not.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#11 - 2015-09-01 21:14:32 UTC
*cough* heavy missiles *cough* heavy assault missiles *cough* torpedos *cough*

..don't mind me I have something in my throat.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#12 - 2015-09-01 21:20:13 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
*cough* heavy missiles *cough* heavy assault missiles *cough* torpedos *cough*

..don't mind me I have something in my throat.


These are actually not bad, all things considered, when they are used against appropriately sized targets.

The problem in general with the game at the moment is that there is not a good reason to ever undock or fly things which are 'appropriately sized'.


Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2015-09-01 21:23:35 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
*cough* heavy missiles *cough* heavy assault missiles *cough* torpedos *cough*

..don't mind me I have something in my throat.


These are actually not bad, all things considered, when they are used against appropriately sized targets.

The problem in general with the game at the moment is that there is not a good reason to ever undock or fly things which are 'appropriately sized'.




Heavies are typically only used on Rapid launchers on BSs in order to get better application/dps than you'd get with torp/cruise.

Most BCs and cruisers are typically used with rapid launchers.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#14 - 2015-09-01 21:31:48 UTC
OP forgot to specify. Small autocannons are generally fine, and larges are not in too bad shape.

Mediums, however, are up there with medium missile launchers as some of the worst weapons in the game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#15 - 2015-09-01 21:40:19 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
*cough* heavy missiles *cough* heavy assault missiles *cough* torpedos *cough*

..don't mind me I have something in my throat.


These are actually not bad, all things considered, when they are used against appropriately sized targets.

The problem in general with the game at the moment is that there is not a good reason to ever undock or fly things which are 'appropriately sized'.




Heavies are typically only used on Rapid launchers on BSs in order to get better application/dps than you'd get with torp/cruise.

Most BCs and cruisers are typically used with rapid launchers.


Right, because if you fly something big and heavy, the safe assumption is that what you are up against is going to be one class lighter than you are, i.e. who else would be cool enough to undock something big any more?

While medium missiles and autocannons are in a terrible spot right now, there's two options. One is just buff them to be relevant in a fast moving world full of small things, the other is to to deal with the root cause and actually make big things worth flying, so that every big thing doesn't have to step its weapons down to be useful. Its a poor choice to just keep systematically buffing every weapon system to have crazy application.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#16 - 2015-09-01 21:51:44 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:

While medium missiles and autocannons are in a terrible spot right now, there's two options. One is just buff them to be relevant in a fast moving world full of small things, the other is to to deal with the root cause and actually make big things worth flying, so that every big thing doesn't have to step its weapons down to be useful. Its a poor choice to just keep systematically buffing every weapon system to have crazy application.


And at the very least, that means addressing the speed creep. And that needs done for more than one reason anyway.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#17 - 2015-09-01 21:53:14 UTC
Large guns are also hilariously terrible according to math done by Baboli et al. in his "making battleships worth the warp" thread (Eve-O 2014)
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#18 - 2015-09-01 23:20:05 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
*cough* heavy missiles *cough* heavy assault missiles *cough* torpedos *cough*

..don't mind me I have something in my throat.


These are actually not bad, all things considered, when they are used against appropriately sized targets.

The problem in general with the game at the moment is that there is not a good reason to ever undock or fly things which are 'appropriately sized'.


You are right and it wouldn't be so terrible if the skirmish warfare link - evasive manuvers wouldn't be such a gigantic bonus. That should be addressed and maybe buff the halo implant set a little.

With strong x-tinct, skirmish links and a high-grade halo implant set I can get most of my cruisers down to 45 - 80m signature radius. At this point your cruiser is a very large frigate and a battleship is a large cruiser.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
#19 - 2015-09-01 23:31:32 UTC
Medium missiles and launchers are garbage but thats a topic for another thread.

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Arla Sarain
#20 - 2015-09-01 23:40:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Considering the top two ships on zkill at the moment are Svipul and Sabre, by a significant margin, somehow I don't think small autocannons really need that much adjustment


This.

It takes 6 effective turrets to make ACs anywhere near good, along with a historical bias towards sabres due to their slot layout and fitting.

Svipuls are cancer with or without ACs.

Looking at numbers without context doesn't represent reality. It just offers a possible interpretation.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
OP forgot to specify. Small autocannons are generally fine, and larges are not in too bad shape.

Destroyer hulls are not really general.
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