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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Salvos Rhoska
#921 - 2015-09-01 19:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
This "competitive pve" fixation seems to be a result of some pretty serious GW2 marketing and brainwashing.

And yet nobody can offer or find an authoritative or substantive definition for it.

In anycase, no such thing exists in EVE.

Its either PvP, or PvE (in which case its PvP anyways).
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#922 - 2015-09-01 19:24:38 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lol, no it wasn't.
Of course it was. With CW2.0, there was no longer any GCC, and the underlying exploit was patched out. The conditions that made it an exploit no longer existed and hyperdunking very specifically does not replicate those conditions — in fact, it relies on the exact opposite. In the end, it was just another way of evading Concord destruction, and hyperdunking wouldn't function if Concord doesn't show up and destroy stuff.

Quote:
Are they or are they not getting into a new ship?
Not in any way that is meaningful for the reshipping restriction, no.

Quote:
It's adapting by playing something else.
Again, that's not really adaptation — they're removing themselves from the ecosystem, making themselves extinct.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#923 - 2015-09-01 19:29:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Whitehound wrote:
It is as I described it. It is a fight for position in a market environment.
…a fight against other players, not against the environment. Thus: PvP.

Quote:
All you are describing is correct, only is this commonly called competitive PvE.
Not commonly no. In fact, almost never, and especially not in the absence of any PvE to compete over such as in the case of the EVE marketplace. There is nothing PvE about a market when everything that's going on there is players competing with players. The lack of any kind of “environment” as an opposition precludes it from being any form of PvE, including your misconstrued “competitive PvE”.

Quote:
Loss is important in PvP.
Not particularly, no.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#924 - 2015-09-01 19:31:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Lucas Kell wrote:
But what you're saying is that people should just choose to not be the victim of a crime. Like someone shooting you in the chest or raping you in an alley is something you have the option of avoiding. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that in EVE you can't avoid being hyperdunked, but to suggest that in real life you can simply opt to never be the victim of a crime is a whole new level of stupidity.


This is another example of how you thinking is flawed from the get go. Who said "never be the victim of a crime"? See how you automatically defaulted to the extreme there?

Like I said, i deal with people who think like you all day. One even told me "since I can't be 100% safe, I just decided to say F it and let the chips fall where they may". This while i was taking a report about how he'd had something expensive stolen from his totally unlocked vehicle... What was funny was that he was mad at US because "there is never a cop around when you actually need one". This after not lifting a single finger in his own defense.

People that think like what I describe get victimized all the time. What I almost never see are people who took precautions against crime/evil/accidents. Just like in game, you almost never hear from people who take precautions, who think and plan and have back ups in place. It's always the 'professional soft targets' who actually get hurt that I see.

And just like you just did here, when you try to explain objective reality to them, they think it's the stupidest thing they ever heard and accuse people of 'blaming the victim'. It demonstrates not only that they don't understand, they can't understand actual reality.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#925 - 2015-09-01 19:34:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Of course it was. With CW2.0, there was no longer any GCC, and the underlying exploit was patched out. The conditions that made it an exploit no longer existed and hyperdunking very specifically does not replicate those conditions — in fact, it relies on the exact opposite. In the end, it was just another way of evading Concord destruction, and hyperdunking wouldn't function if Concord doesn't show up and destroy stuff.
Roll
It was what it stated. It was to stop people running back and repeatedly shooting someone blowing them up without the need for a group of players. I accept that CCP have deemed hyperdunking as OK, regardless of how much I disagree with it. What is with this ridiculous need to try to declare that it was always allowed?

Tippia wrote:
Not in any way that is meaningful for the reshipping restriction, no.
I stated that thy reshipped, you stated that they didn't. You were wrong. Simple.

Tippia wrote:
Again, that's not really adaptation — they're removing themselves from the ecosystem, making themselves extinct.
From their perspective, it's adaptation. They aren't ceasing to exist, I doubt they are even ceasing to play video games, they are simply adapting to a negative change in one of their games by playing others instead. Whatever you want to call it, it's a perfectly valid reaction.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Salvos Rhoska
#926 - 2015-09-01 19:34:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lucas Kell wrote:
But what you're saying is that people should just choose to not be the victim of a crime. Like someone shooting you in the chest or raping you in an alley is something you have the option of avoiding.

Those are crimes in the real world.
Anyone committing those crimes will be punished, whether the victim could have prevented it or not.

The activities mentioned in this thread, however, are NOT crimes in EVE.
Therefore it is entirely on people's own recognizance whether they take precautions, or fall "victim" to them.

As inane in the real world as it is to blame the victim, it is equally inane in EVE to blame the perpetrator.
In either case, you are misplacing responsibility.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#927 - 2015-09-01 19:39:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
But what you're saying is that people should just choose to not be the victim of a crime. Like someone shooting you in the chest or raping you in an alley is something you have the option of avoiding. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that in EVE you can't avoid being hyperdunked, but to suggest that in real life you can simply opt to never be the victim of a crime is a whole new level of stupidity.
This is another example of how you thinking is flawed from the get go. Who said "never be the victim of a crime"? See how you automatically defaulted to the extreme there?

Like I said, i deal with people who think like you all day. One even told me "since I can't be 100% safe, I just decided to say F it and let the chips fall where they may". This while i was taking a report about how he'd had something expensive stolen from his totally unlocked vehicle... What was funny was that he was mad at US because "there is never a cop around when you actually need one". This after not lifting a single finger in his own defense.

People that think like what I describe get victimized all the time. What I almost never see are people who took precautions against crime/evil/accidents. Just like in game, you almost never hear from people who take precautions, who think and plan and have back ups in place. It's always the 'professional soft targets' who actually get hurt that I see.

And just like you just did here, when you try to explain objective reality to them, they think it's the stupidest thing they ever heard and accuse people of 'blaming the victim'. It demonstrates not only that they don't understand, they can't understand actual reality.
Except that's not what you said. You stated that you can just not be the victim and so not worry about any of it. Like it's an option. Just because dumb people exist doesn't mean that everyone that's a victim is dumb. You're unwilling to even consider the idea that perhaps it's not down to what the victim did and wasn't a choice to them.

Anyway, let's not go too far off topic. The guy want's to quit because of hyperdunking. He has convictions and sticks to them. Good for him.

And Salvos, shhhhhh.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#928 - 2015-09-01 19:44:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lucas Kell wrote:
I accept that CCP have deemed hyperdunking as OK, regardless of how much I disagree with it. What is with this ridiculous need to try to declare that it was always allowed?
No-one is declaring that. I'm simply saying that, with the flagging changes (and subsequent bug fixes) that came with CW2.0, the old rules no longer offer any useful guidance since they talk about conditions that no longer exist. As it happens, one rule was retained: that it is an exploit to evade Concord destruction. Hyperdunking is allowed because it does not break this rule — it relishes and revels in it.

Quote:
I stated that thy reshipped, you stated that they didn't
Actually, you said that they're breaking the rule about reshipping under a criminal timer; I said that they don't. I'm sorry that the implied “in such a way that the rule in question is broken” did not come through for you.

Quote:
From their perspective, it's adaptation.
Their perspective doesn't matter, because they've gone extinct and no longer interact with the changes they should have adapted to.

Quote:
You stated that you can just not be the victim and so not worry about any of it. Like it's an option.
When did he say anything of the kind?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#929 - 2015-09-01 19:45:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
But what you're saying is that people should just choose to not be the victim of a crime. Like someone shooting you in the chest or raping you in an alley is something you have the option of avoiding. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that in EVE you can't avoid being hyperdunked, but to suggest that in real life you can simply opt to never be the victim of a crime is a whole new level of stupidity.
This is another example of how you thinking is flawed from the get go. Who said "never be the victim of a crime"? See how you automatically defaulted to the extreme there?

Like I said, i deal with people who think like you all day. One even told me "since I can't be 100% safe, I just decided to say F it and let the chips fall where they may". This while i was taking a report about how he'd had something expensive stolen from his totally unlocked vehicle... What was funny was that he was mad at US because "there is never a cop around when you actually need one". This after not lifting a single finger in his own defense.

People that think like what I describe get victimized all the time. What I almost never see are people who took precautions against crime/evil/accidents. Just like in game, you almost never hear from people who take precautions, who think and plan and have back ups in place. It's always the 'professional soft targets' who actually get hurt that I see.

And just like you just did here, when you try to explain objective reality to them, they think it's the stupidest thing they ever heard and accuse people of 'blaming the victim'. It demonstrates not only that they don't understand, they can't understand actual reality.
Except that's not what you said. You stated that you can just not be the victim and so not worry about any of it. Like it's an option. Just because dumb people exist doesn't mean that everyone that's a victim is dumb. You're unwilling to even consider the idea that perhaps it's not down to what the victim did and wasn't a choice to them.

Anyway, let's not go too far off topic. The guy want's to quit because of hyperdunking. He has convictions and sticks to them. Good for him.

And Salvos, shhhhhh.


This is why I always call you a liar. Edit, thought I add the plain English you ignored in order to lie:

Jenn aSide wrote:
Responsible people rarely get victimized.


I know what I wrote, everyone can read what I wrote, everyone else except you understood what I wrote. Instead of thinking "maybe I read that wrong, maybe I misunderstood", you pretend that I said or meant something I didn't. People without the screwed up 'filters' you have understand that I never even suggested that people can be 100% free of crime or evil in the real world (just like in EVE you can't be 100% safe in space no matter what you do).

And then you will wonder at and act surprised at why I think you're not a very good person. Your posting does not suggest an honest man.
Throth
Doomheim
#930 - 2015-09-01 19:46:51 UTC
For the nubs that pretend to have been around Eve from the beginning and pretend that suicide ganking was there from the start contrary to what I said, the first Eve post mentioning it was mid 2006 on the old forums - years after I was playing Eve... just like I said.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=303483
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#931 - 2015-09-01 19:47:57 UTC
Just cancelled an account due for renewal in less than two weeks.

Will pay $60 to transfer the characters to active accounts. Ouch,

Won't affect the CUC at all.
Salvos Rhoska
#932 - 2015-09-01 19:49:46 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
But what you're saying is that people should just choose to not be the victim of a crime. Like someone shooting you in the chest or raping you in an alley is something you have the option of avoiding.

Those are crimes in the real world.
Anyone committing those crimes will be punished, whether the victim could have prevented it or not.

The activities mentioned in this thread, however, are NOT crimes in EVE.
Therefore it is entirely on people's own recognizance whether they take precautions, or fall "victim" to them.

As inane in the real world as it is to blame the victim, it is equally inane in EVE to blame the perpetrator.
In either case, you are misplacing responsibility.

Do you have difficulty distinguishing between EVE and the real world?

Lucas Kell wrote:
And Salvos, shhhhhh.

Weak.
Very weak.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#933 - 2015-09-01 19:50:53 UTC
Throth wrote:
For the nubs that pretend to have been around Eve from the beginning and pretend that suicide ganking was there from the start contrary to what I said, the first Eve post mentioning it was mid 2006 on the old forums - years after I was playing Eve... just like I said.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=303483

You mean the post that makes it quite clear that it's been going on for quite some time? Oh, and how did you determine that it's the first post to mention it?

One more thing: since you claim to have been around at the time, could you tell us when Concord was made invincible? Do you also know when Concord was implemented?
Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#934 - 2015-09-01 19:52:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Odie McCracken
Throth wrote:
For the nubs that pretend to have been around Eve from the beginning and pretend that suicide ganking was there from the start contrary to what I said, the first Eve post mentioning it was mid 2006 on the old forums - years after I was playing Eve... just like I said.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=303483



2004 would like a word with you

http://www.eve-search.com/thread/74718-0/page/1

Edit - interesting how many of the replies to that thread are similar to what is said today. Some things never change Lol
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#935 - 2015-09-01 19:53:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Oops. Lol
So much for “experience”.

edit:

Odie McCracken wrote:
Edit - interesting how many of the replies to that thread are similar to what is said today. Some things never change Lol

I especially like this one: “Maybe Defender Missiles will finally get fixed someday...”

How cute. How eternally true. Lol
Throth
Doomheim
#936 - 2015-09-01 19:54:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Throth wrote:
For the nubs that pretend to have been around Eve from the beginning and pretend that suicide ganking was there from the start contrary to what I said, the first Eve post mentioning it was mid 2006 on the old forums - years after I was playing Eve... just like I said.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=303483

You mean the post that makes it quite clear that it's been going on for quite some time? Oh, and how did you determine that it's the first post to mention it?

One more thing: since you claim to have been around at the time, could you tell us when Concord was made invincible? Do you also know when Concord was implemented?


Do you offer a counter post? No? Then stfu, unless you have something to actually offer. You can't say I am wrong, but be unable to produce any evidence other then your speculations on my proof. If I'm wrong you should be able to show moe an older post/video/comment somewhere. If you can't, then just give it up. My experience plus this post are greater than your nothing.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#937 - 2015-09-01 19:56:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Throth wrote:
For the nubs that pretend to have been around Eve from the beginning and pretend that suicide ganking was there from the start contrary to what I said, the first Eve post mentioning it was mid 2006 on the old forums - years after I was playing Eve... just like I said.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=303483


How about 2003?

The first devblog referring to police and CONCORD punishing players in empire space is dated June 7, 2003, a month after the servers opened: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/concord-deploys-special-ops/

Let me quote the whole post so we can all take a trip down memory lane:

Quote:

CONCORD deploys Special Ops
2003-06-07 22:39 By CCP Hellmar
Just a word of warning to the ones that want to make a name for themselves in the world of EVE. Empire controlled space, means that the space is controlled by the empires. If the police are not cutting it against players riding an obviously imbalanced module combination, reinforcements will be called, be it special NPCs or GM controlled NPCs (special-ops).

Do as you please in non-empire space but please don’t complain when the empires take action against you in their space, when you are obviously violating their rules.

The actions taken today were with in the rules of the game, the ships being used are ships in the game. The empires have ample resources to manufacture them and the pilots controlling then have up to 3+ years experience flying EVE vessels.

If you want to role-play a pirate corp., this is the environment we provide. The only thing we are guilty of is not communicating this clearly enough but in this case everyone involved had a chance to evacuated empire space before "the four" hit them.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#938 - 2015-09-01 19:57:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Odie McCracken wrote:
Throth wrote:
For the nubs that pretend to have been around Eve from the beginning and pretend that suicide ganking was there from the start contrary to what I said, the first Eve post mentioning it was mid 2006 on the old forums - years after I was playing Eve... just like I said.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=303483



2004 would like a word with you

http://www.eve-search.com/thread/74718-0/page/1



There is an old saying that is apt here.

"The more things change the more they stay the same". People love to view the past as some great time where nothing bad happens, not understanding that they didn't observer every single thing that happened in the past. For some reason I'm reminded of that old dude on duck dynasty.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#939 - 2015-09-01 19:57:53 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
You are persisting on "having to lose a ship in combat" to define PvP as PvP.

There are various levels of risk in ship combat. I'd say WH and 0.0 are riskier to fight in than Highsec. But that is just my opinion.

What is true, is that a station trader has zero risk of losing a ship in space. This does not however mean that the market is an environment per se. It means that the station trader has cut out all the risks that industrialists, haulers and people who just sell off some loot and buy new mods have.

You said it yourself: "Traders are merely competing with other traders" making it player vs player.

The additional "spot in the market environment" is unnecessary, because you want to emphasize "environment" to sneak your PvE in. When I position my ship in space thats an environment and it doesn't make my actions by default PvE. So as a trader I set my stakes and observe what other traders do. I'm not independent of what other players do.

More important the actions of the trader have consequences on other players aswell, including ship combat enthousiasts. During the alliance tournament, it was commentated that some alliances would try to guess what opponents would want to field. They would then try to buy up all available items of that type either drying up the market or listing them again at a marked up price.

It is as I described it. It is a fight for position in a market environment. Players are represented by brokers and stay anonymous, shielded by the market environment, not just by the station they are sitting in. Or do you disagree with this description?

All you are describing is correct, only is this commonly called competitive PvE. You do certainly compete against other players in competitive PvE. Hence the name. In competitive PvE do you perform tasks, but these cannot be targeted at another player. You only may look at other players, judge their progress and attempt to be better, but you are not fighting them directly. You are only fighting yourself, your limits, the time, the environment, but nothing you do can be used to cause the other players a loss. In competitive PvE is there no loss. Players only compete to make a gain. So is market trading.

Loss is important in PvP. All power in PvP has an equivalent in the amount of loss you can suffer. A rookie ship is replaced easiest, but also does not pose much of a threat. A Titan is very expensive and takes time to build. Losing a Titan is a unique experience, but the power that comes with it is equally unique. The power defines your ability to fight and to inflict losses and the fear of a loss is what drives you to defend it. If it had no loss would EVE be a PvE game.


When you use the market, you're not playing on a parallel system which doesn't interact with my market ... heck even what happens in Jita bears dow on other system's markets.

We're not having single-player or coop games vs AI and then check who's got the highest score.

How does a limited anonymity factor in the whole thing not being PvP. I could play a shooter or a racing game, where everyone is anonymous. As long as we're competing against each other and not against AI it is PvP.

As for not losing on the market ... that was explained already. No need to see an explosion to lose ISK on the market.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#940 - 2015-09-01 19:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Throth wrote:
Do you offer a counter post?
Yes. Now answer the questions.

Quote:
You can't say I am wrong, but be unable to produce any evidence other then your speculations on my proof.
Can, did, got the proof.

Your “experience” is worth, as you'd say, phk-all, because it has no relation to, and bears no resemblance with, actual reality or recorded history.