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Thorn en Distel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2015-08-31 06:42:32 UTC
Conrin wrote:
Thorn en Distel wrote:
Conrin wrote:


Lets see you put hundreds of hours into developing something for free, spending your RL money on hosting etc.

THEN will you be able to have a valid cause for making this argument.

I'm not saying people should make serious bank on CCP's IP but ffs give and take and common sense should be applied.


Uhm yeah... so, as a guild leader, I spent hundreds of hours writing game guides, raid guides, PVP guides etc. for my guild. Not to mention the hours spent on keeping our forums spammer free and up-to-date. I also paid for our (50 person) Ventrilo server out of my own pocket. How is that any different? And in the course of 12 years, I've yet to get even one penny contributed by the guild.

Either you do it out of love for the game / the guild or just don't do it at all.

/hatespointlesswhining



Thats YOUR opinion.

The internet is a wonderful world where people can SAY they do lots of things... i for example date a supermodel. You SAY you paid all of this just for the love of the game... mmm ok i believe you even though countless thousands wouldnt.

I'm saying if you wanted to put ads on your forums, on your guides you should be able to, if you want to charge a small fee to cover server costs and users will buy into that then you should be able to. Restricting monetization in such an absolute fashion kills creativity. If someone were making serious money off CCP's IP such as by for example selling posters of ships then thats not benefiting the eve community and reasonable for CCP to smack them down.

I can see the balance that CCP has to strike but common sense should prevail. i.e. does the dude actually make serious money from this or is he covering server costs.



I can't help but wonder what your exposure to the actual reality out there is. I've had close contact with many other guilds over the years, and I can assure you, by far most guild leaders assume most if not all of the costs of running things like voice chat servers and/or web sites and forums. Some guilds even develop proprietary tools for their own use, all out of desire to win and love of the game. It's not like I'm claiming to be some wonderful exception, if anything, I'm pretty damn standard.

Either way, like others have already mentioned, if 'that dude' is that desperate for cash, (s)he should abide by the rules.
Rauour Engil
Rabies Inc.
#22 - 2015-08-31 09:23:51 UTC
Conrin wrote:
Madbuster73 wrote:
If you make an APP, it should be as a hobby.
If it costs you money or a lot of hard work to make the APP, so be it.
The rules are: You should NOT make RL money off an EVE Online service.

EVE-EYE used to be free, then he started to charge money for the use of it.
Its his own fault. If he really loves EVE it should be for free or he should ask ISK for it.


Lets see you put hundreds of hours into developing something for free, spending your RL money on hosting etc.

THEN will you be able to have a valid cause for making this argument.

I'm not saying people should make serious bank on CCP's IP but ffs give and take and common sense should be applied.

They (CCP) should offer hosting for free for these services. Problem solved. Then people can pour hours of their lives into developing cool stuff like this (if they want to do so) and not be financially inconvenienced in real life. I say CCP should offer hosting because the other option would be to change the language to say 'not for RL monetary profit' which would allow RL money as long as it didn't exceed the costs of providing the service. That would then require auditing and so on which would be a pain. Much easier for CCP to host the services (small private cloud on some of their old servers in the DC).
Malt Zedong
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2015-08-31 09:31:49 UTC
People have some weired ideas of justice.

You really think that it is unfair that you cant earn money by doing a website that despite you spent money on hosting and time one developing, you cant profit over ?

Like ... erh ... you actually is doing little to nothing worth of earning money. The hard work actually is done by the people behind the API you using. You dont actually need to spend money to do something like that.

It is like those people who up Youtube videos which are essentially someone else's video "explained" and fill it with advertising. And complain you use ad block.

Rules are rules, you dont like it, dont use it. That is the great thing that makes me respect CCP more than other game publishers, and that keeps us from having bogus things all over the place.

BTW, dotlan still up and running.

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.
Conrin
Elucidated Brethren of the Ebon Knights
Elucidated Empire
#24 - 2015-08-31 19:41:29 UTC
Rauour Engil wrote:
Conrin wrote:
Madbuster73 wrote:
If you make an APP, it should be as a hobby.
If it costs you money or a lot of hard work to make the APP, so be it.
The rules are: You should NOT make RL money off an EVE Online service.

EVE-EYE used to be free, then he started to charge money for the use of it.
Its his own fault. If he really loves EVE it should be for free or he should ask ISK for it.


Lets see you put hundreds of hours into developing something for free, spending your RL money on hosting etc.

THEN will you be able to have a valid cause for making this argument.

I'm not saying people should make serious bank on CCP's IP but ffs give and take and common sense should be applied.

They (CCP) should offer hosting for free for these services. Problem solved. Then people can pour hours of their lives into developing cool stuff like this (if they want to do so) and not be financially inconvenienced in real life. I say CCP should offer hosting because the other option would be to change the language to say 'not for RL monetary profit' which would allow RL money as long as it didn't exceed the costs of providing the service. That would then require auditing and so on which would be a pain. Much easier for CCP to host the services (small private cloud on some of their old servers in the DC).


I'd fully support that idea

If I win a bid for one of your characters please evemail or convo me. While i try to keep reviewing my active bids its not always possible.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2015-09-01 00:15:25 UTC
The simple fact is the people with enough time to do this stuff often do not have money to pay hosting.

I believe voluntary donations may be OK but requiring a donation to use the site at all probably pushes the envelope a bit legally.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#26 - 2015-09-01 00:32:09 UTC
Conrin wrote:
Madbuster73 wrote:
If you make an APP, it should be as a hobby.
If it costs you money or a lot of hard work to make the APP, so be it.
The rules are: You should NOT make RL money off an EVE Online service.

EVE-EYE used to be free, then he started to charge money for the use of it.
Its his own fault. If he really loves EVE it should be for free or he should ask ISK for it.


Lets see you put hundreds of hours into developing something for free, spending your RL money on hosting etc.

THEN will you be able to have a valid cause for making this argument.

I'm not saying people should make serious bank on CCP's IP but ffs give and take and common sense should be applied.



Hi!

I have put a bunch of time, and RL money into my site. This argument is correct.

It's not like CCP pulled a bait and switch here.

You can ask for donations. That's pretty much it, unless you talk to CCP directly, and arrange some kind of licensing deal for their IP.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Oddsodz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-09-01 02:43:19 UTC
I myself am not internet law genius, But it seems to me that this needs looking into more. And here is why.

Any website that makes real life money by using EVE Content from CCP has to get some sort of deal with CCP, right? So how come some of the more popular Eve Streamers on twitch/youtube are allowed to make real life money from EVE content? I am not digging at Eve Streamers, I am one myself. But I don't make any money from it (yet, maybe one day).

I have no clue if sites like EN24 and TMC have a deal with CCP. But they sure do have google ads running (that's not to say they make much from it).

I do hope you can see my point?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#28 - 2015-09-01 06:45:51 UTC
Oddsodz wrote:
I myself am not internet law genius, But it seems to me that this needs looking into more. And here is why.

Any website that makes real life money by using EVE Content from CCP has to get some sort of deal with CCP, right? So how come some of the more popular Eve Streamers on twitch/youtube are allowed to make real life money from EVE content? I am not digging at Eve Streamers, I am one myself. But I don't make any money from it (yet, maybe one day).

I have no clue if sites like EN24 and TMC have a deal with CCP. But they sure do have google ads running (that's not to say they make much from it).

I do hope you can see my point?

It's all covered by the third-party license posted earlier.

You are allowed to ask for donations, but they must be exactly that: donations, with no tit-for-tat — you can't hide any content behind a pay wall. You are allowed to use the video hosting monetisations (youtube and twitch ads), again without using pay walls or “premium subscription” services, and you're also not allowed to use those videos to advertise and sell your own stuff. Likewise, you are allowed to put regular web ads on your website (google ads and the likes) with the same limitations. You are also not allowed to use in-game currency or items as an incentive to do anything other than be a part of the community — no “subscribe and win” or “click for ISK” or anything.

Put another way: you're allowed to be popular and make money from that popularity the same as you would with any other popular website or video series; you are not allowed to make money from EVE, including hiding EVE-related content behind any demand for payment, no matter how indirect.

There's nothing special about streamers, other than that the more popular services have built-in monetisation mechanisms and that there is a separate policy explaining how these schemes work in conjunction with the third-party license (viz. the whole “no paywalls/subscriptions” bit above). In effect, they're the same rules as for everyone else.
Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
#29 - 2015-09-02 02:19:23 UTC
The service appears to be back online :) Give the guy a donation if you use the service!
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