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Why even bother trying to fight anymore.
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Malt Zedong
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2015-08-31 18:01:41 UTC
Darth Terona wrote:
Eve is absolutely a competition for me. Been doing solo pvp for a couple of years now.

I choose to play eve like call of duty. I spawn in, look for a kill, and respawn when I die. I repeatedly do this until I'm satisfied in any given gamming session.

I choose to look at the game as a game. I'm here to have fun. Fun for me is blowing people up.

Also don't worry about isk. A rifter is less than 300k. Mods can be salvaged from wrecks or rats.

I'm not that broke yet after years. Something always happens eventually to keep my wallet in the green.


I am happy that a lot of people like this provide me with the means to stuff my account with up to 10bil ISK in one day of trading.

That is the kind of atitude that puts fear in to middle class people heart. The idea that passing by a given system or gate will get them blown up. Among you guys that like blow up people in inexpensive ships and the people who fears to lose their ships, the margin trade booms, and I just collect.

EVE is real ™

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#82 - 2015-08-31 18:05:28 UTC
Velarra wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Ships and losses are the very fuel for content, and as such I assert ships should be as easily replaced as ammo.


This would kill eve and be bad. If you crave meaningless losses and 'fun' non-stop fighting SiSi has 6C waiting and ready to serve the desire for this.

Eve isn't a "sport". It's premeditated, patient conflict.


See, this is the funny bit about eve. Ships actually are easily replaceable and insurance on T1 does dramatically reduce the cost. A complex sov operation with industry and such means ships and equipment can be much easier to come by. Industrials get their stuff and pve while pvpers get pvp...

What is causing the bluefest for cost used to be the high expense meta for ships. That is now changed. People are now able to compete for sov and freeporting stations, so that is awesome. Means that smaller strategic forces can guerrilla tactics vs a large and disorganized entry. So why don' the good fights happen?

Killboards

So ships can be replaced, there are reasons and accessibility to fights. Why don't people put up a good fight? Cause one ship loss on the killboards is horrible! Our efficiency has dropped and people will question the virility of our e-peen!

If it wasn't for those stupid killboards, people would only be concerned about winning. I mean if that was the case, people would fight to the last ship or damned close. You lose 75% of your ships to take out their fleet? Sounds like a win. There are other ways to bring tactics into it as well? Killboards just give a very quantifiable value to win and loss. Has no value in gameplay. The only concept of win or loss in a fight should be the result of the win or loss. Killboards are fun, and nice to be able to share the results of an awesome battle, but they just prevent more than are shared.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Malt Zedong
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2015-08-31 18:15:06 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Velarra wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Ships and losses are the very fuel for content, and as such I assert ships should be as easily replaced as ammo.


This would kill eve and be bad. If you crave meaningless losses and 'fun' non-stop fighting SiSi has 6C waiting and ready to serve the desire for this.

Eve isn't a "sport". It's premeditated, patient conflict.


See, this is the funny bit about eve. Ships actually are easily replaceable and insurance on T1 does dramatically reduce the cost. A complex sov operation with industry and such means ships and equipment can be much easier to come by. Industrials get their stuff and pve while pvpers get pvp...

What is causing the bluefest for cost used to be the high expense meta for ships. That is now changed. People are now able to compete for sov and freeporting stations, so that is awesome. Means that smaller strategic forces can guerrilla tactics vs a large and disorganized entry. So why don' the good fights happen?

Killboards

So ships can be replaced, there are reasons and accessibility to fights. Why don't people put up a good fight? Cause one ship loss on the killboards is horrible! Our efficiency has dropped and people will question the virility of our e-peen!

If it wasn't for those stupid killboards, people would only be concerned about winning. I mean if that was the case, people would fight to the last ship or damned close. You lose 75% of your ships to take out their fleet? Sounds like a win. There are other ways to bring tactics into it as well? Killboards just give a very quantifiable value to win and loss. Has no value in gameplay. The only concept of win or loss in a fight should be the result of the win or loss. Killboards are fun, and nice to be able to share the results of an awesome battle, but they just prevent more than are shared.


See, that is the funny thing about EVE. There are people who think like you all, and the game still the same.

The only thing is that one of those playstyles require that the other comply with their wishes, the other doesnt.

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#84 - 2015-08-31 18:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Malt Zedong wrote:

See, that is the funny thing about EVE. There are people who think like you all, and the game still the same.

The only thing is that one of those playstyles require that the other comply with their wishes, the other doesnt.


Not sure what you mean there (legitimately). Is that how some people think the game should only be played one way or do you mean that some of us believe eve is projection of force while others think it should be more casual RvB style play?

Main thing is I am just curious how it relates to my post is all. I personally do not find invalidity of the killboards value. If you are the top dog in pvp, then now you have proof. the awesome side of it. I just unfortunately see it as being the endgame instead of something in the game itself. In my time in game and since the resource rebalance, what in eve is worth fighting over? What has value more than some ranking that will have an alliance willfully taking losses to acheive their objective instead of turtling until it is numbers to force a station game?

I am thinking that is sort of the big side of the discussion on pvp currently happening here. There is no incentive to risk losing ships and combat is able to have far to much meta resulting in fights that are reliant on a few main commanders instead of having the fight results relying more on the fleet's total composition in terms of player skills.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Malt Zedong
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2015-08-31 18:59:36 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Malt Zedong wrote:

See, that is the funny thing about EVE. There are people who think like you all, and the game still the same.

The only thing is that one of those playstyles require that the other comply with their wishes, the other doesnt.


Not sure what you mean there (legitimately). Is that how some people think the game should only be played one way or do you mean that some of us believe eve is projection of force while others think it should be more casual RvB style play?

Main thing is I am just curious how it relates to my post is all. I personally do not find invalidity of the killboards value. If you are the top dog in pvp, then now you have proof. the awesome side of it. I just unfortunately see it as being the endgame instead of something in the game itself. In my time in game and since the resource rebalance, what in eve is worth fighting over? What has value more than some ranking that will have an alliance willfully taking losses to acheive their objective instead of turtling until it is numbers to force a station game?

I am thinking that is sort of the big side of the discussion on pvp currently happening here. There is no incentive to risk losing ships and combat is able to have far to much meta resulting in fights that are reliant on a few main commanders instead of having the fight results relying more on the fleet's total composition in terms of player skills.


There is actually no technical definition for PvP or PvE, those are comercial terms. The line is blurred by what people consider a versus, but for my interpretation, I follow what EVE manual says. It calls everything pvp, everything is pvp, plain simple.

What I meant is that this is a persistent sandbox universe. It is more or less expected that some people feel strongly about losing pixel property, and feel attached to that. Real life is the same. Some people consider things are things, if it burns or it is stolen, it is just things. Others almost suicide when losing a smartphone valued 100 bucks. Still, each head one idea.

What bothers the balance is that the people who thinks of eve like a second life and prize it like such dont bother about people who doesnt until those people make a point of tryin to make them start acting otherwise.

And people who treat eve as just a game and go around blowing things up most of the times make a point of seeking the people who value their eve things to make them stop being like that. For no ingame reason, just to **** those people off.

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.
Iblis Shaytan
Doomheim
#86 - 2015-08-31 19:01:38 UTC
Dale Liathain wrote:
This is a silly thread.

OP goes to low to find fights.

OP finds fights.

OP complains about finding too many fights.

Just jump a few stargates, dude. Problem solved,



LOL! I was thinking that, too.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#87 - 2015-08-31 19:16:49 UTC
Malt Zedong wrote:

There is actually no technical definition for PvP or PvE, those are comercial terms. The line is blurred by what people consider a versus, but for my interpretation, I follow what EVE manual says. It calls everything pvp, everything is pvp, plain simple.

What I meant is that this is a persistent sandbox universe. It is more or less expected that some people feel strongly about losing pixel property, and feel attached to that. Real life is the same. Some people consider things are things, if it burns or it is stolen, it is just things. Others almost suicide when losing a smartphone valued 100 bucks. Still, each head one idea.

What bothers the balance is that the people who thinks of eve like a second life and prize it like such dont bother about people who doesnt until those people make a point of tryin to make them start acting otherwise.

And people who treat eve as just a game and go around blowing things up most of the times make a point of seeking the people who value their eve things to make them stop being like that. For no ingame reason, just to **** those people off.


Ahh, I got ya now! I understand completely how some people take gaming seriously. I am a HIGHLY competitive person. Hence I play eve usually against the grain just to reduce that part. I dislike loss for no gain. Hence why I rarely pvp. I can never see the gain that offsets the loss.

That is like killboards. I like winning in games and having that high score. But eve isn't arena/encounter based. As such, that concern about score I find detracts. People are not willing to risk their ships else it affects the score. Unfortunately that is to the detriment of gameplay. Today I have been analogy for League of legends. People rage about their Elo score there. But, that at least encourages people to play.

The more you fight and the better you are, the better your ranking. Eve is counter to that. So ideal score means you want to avoid the tough fights. Imagine if everybody in LoL only accepted matches if it was against somebody who was like rank 10-20 ranks below em?

Pure pvp games, people get cocky and go after those more powerful than them because the gain offsets if they lose. What gain is there in eve to go after somebody bigger? KB still has that "leet" battle selecting force much higher in rankings.

The part about "just to **** people off" I actually do not mind in eve so much. In years past, I would train industry corps valid counters and concepts to negate that. They found they liked the game more. Non pvp people countering (so minimal losses) some highsec war dec? That was a huge win for them. It just was not able to be logged in some killboard. Existed as world of mouth only.

Myself, I have same. I love exploration in eve. I focus on nullsec sov space. I get trolled for hiding etc when they are trying to scan me out. After a while I give em a little clue....

"For past hour, you guys have been chasing me and keeping me hidden and saying you are better. However I have (20 for example) people who are not doing anything because they are chasing me."

So I took out 20 people essentially. Can argue how you like but my one ship kept 20 others from doing stuff. Huge win on my part and in my books.

My younger bro is a quite serious gamer. I respect it. It is challenge, requires brain power and interaction. I am into motorcycles. I do not hold one as a more valued hobby than others. It depends on approach. Another topic for another day.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Malt Zedong
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2015-08-31 19:44:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Malt Zedong
And that is the thing. In EVE there is no win, there is only surviving.

You care about doing X, I care about doing Y and your X does not impress me, someone cares about Z, and both X and Y dont impress them.

That is life.

What is really funny is that some people like W, and go on and on about how W is good and how people should like W and forget about X, Y and Z. That is all good until you realize W is not part of EVE actually.

Some time ago someone rose again the subject of Killboards. They are broken and CCP should come up with one of their own.

This has been said from years, and people just dont get what CCP thinks of killboards.


https://www.themittani.com/features/should-ccp-create-official-eve-killboard

But the attitude from CCP about killboards dont come as a surprise for me. Killboards are made by 3rd parties with ccp tools and stay there. Some people find it useless, detrimental, some like it, find it important.

The moment CCP endorses one of it is own, they will be picking sides, and most likely upsetting those who dont like it.

It is like everything else players seek CCP endorsement on. CCP is the developer, and should not pick sides in player controversy unless it is for the better of the game.

Being a veteran in EVE I know they learned it the hard way.

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#89 - 2015-08-31 19:54:14 UTC
As long as we're in this mindset, why even bother to get up to go take a dump any more? Why not just pinch a loaf in bed and kick them out from between the sheets?

Just saying.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#90 - 2015-08-31 20:54:24 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
As long as we're in this mindset, why even bother to get up to go take a dump any more? Why not just pinch a loaf in bed and kick them out from between the sheets?

Just saying.


If some people were given the chance, they probably would. Just take a crap anywhere if there was no direct consequences. All fun and dandy til you gotta sleep and diaper rash on your face might suck a little.

You made your bed now sleep in it? Sheet smears.... but if ya step in it cause you didn't think about what happens when you kick it out, you are the one stuck with it. Just don't go blaming it on somebody else cause there are not bedpans placed around to catch your nutty logs for ya.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Malt Zedong
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2015-08-31 21:26:14 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
As long as we're in this mindset, why even bother to get up to go take a dump any more? Why not just pinch a loaf in bed and kick them out from between the sheets?

Just saying.


If some people were given the chance, they probably would. Just take a crap anywhere if there was no direct consequences. All fun and dandy til you gotta sleep and diaper rash on your face might suck a little.

You made your bed now sleep in it? Sheet smears.... but if ya step in it cause you didn't think about what happens when you kick it out, you are the one stuck with it. Just don't go blaming it on somebody else cause there are not bedpans placed around to catch your nutty logs for ya.


That is the plain old card people use for deffending honor cultures, like warriors, priests and other honor bullshit.

"How can you be moral if you are atheist ?
How can you be motivated if you dont have faith ?
How can you accomplish if the accomplishment does not make you feel better ?
How can you be decisive if the decision does not affect you ?"

It is a so old fallacy it even has a latin name ... Post Hoc.

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#92 - 2015-08-31 21:53:30 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
As long as we're in this mindset, why even bother to get up to go take a dump any more? Why not just pinch a loaf in bed and kick them out from between the sheets?

Just saying.


If some people were given the chance, they probably would. Just take a crap anywhere if there was no direct consequences. All fun and dandy til you gotta sleep and diaper rash on your face might suck a little.

You made your bed now sleep in it? Sheet smears.... but if ya step in it cause you didn't think about what happens when you kick it out, you are the one stuck with it. Just don't go blaming it on somebody else cause there are not bedpans placed around to catch your nutty logs for ya.




You know, I used to think that the apex of lazy was to wear adult diapers so as not to have to get up to hit the latrine.

I pitched that idea as "ultimate lazy" to a friend of mine, back when I was a soldier. My friend was a farm boy from South Carolina. He had more common sense.

He says to me: "No, that's not the height of laziness. It's when you won't change the diaper".

He once told me what the real meaning of "Sh!t-eating grin" was. Never forgot it.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#93 - 2015-08-31 21:53:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Malt Zedong wrote:


That is the plain old card people use for deffending honor cultures, like warriors, priests and other honor bullshit.

"How can you be moral if you are atheist ?
How can you be motivated if you dont have faith ?
How can you accomplish if the accomplishment does not make you feel better ?
How can you be decisive if the decision does not affect you ?"

It is a so old fallacy it even has a latin name ... Post Hoc.


Aaah. Philosophical debates with a person blunt and straight foreward like me...

Simply put, if i am an arse to somebody, and it is okay then nothing will stop it from happening to me so:

1. Moral. Cause it would suck if what is immoral happened to me (guess it depends on your definition of morality?)
2. Motivation comes from the human brain needing to be active. Gotta get it done just for the sake of it and the rewards that follow. Dunno how it relates to faith..
3. Typically I do not do something if it doesnt bring about some improvement either directly or indirectly?
4. If it doesn't affect me, I wouldn't be making a call on it in the first place?

Not sure how it relates to eve, or even what we are talking about but am pretty straight foreward guy. Gotta look at the big picture?
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

You know, I used to think that the apex of lazy was to wear adult diapers so as not to have to get up to hit the latrine.

I pitched that idea as "ultimate lazy" to a friend of mine, back when I was a soldier. My friend was a farm boy from South Carolina. He had more common sense.

He says to me: "No, that's not the height of laziness. It's when you won't change the diaper".

He once told me what the real meaning of "Sh!t-eating grin" was. Never forgot it.


Relates to Eve pretty good scarily enough. Some people don't mind the diaper rash. So they fill it with crap. Won't attract quality business that way, just the flies.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Malt Zedong
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2015-08-31 22:10:14 UTC
Morality is the way obtuse people use to pitch non-sense and make it look right.

Ethics is the act or effect of using morality.

Motivation is self indulging atitude to make people do stuff they dont really understand why.

Honor is a self fueling belief motivating the ethics (the act of being moral).

That is totally relevant to EVE.

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.
permion
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2015-09-01 00:13:44 UTC
Isn't it great?

In most other games you'd wait till 20 to surrender, just continue playing like score didn't matter, wait for a reset, or be given some kind of free bonus for being out numbered.

Welcome to EvE, not only your action has consequence but other's do as well... You know like the style of MMO EvE is aiming to be.
Zozoll Neblyn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2015-09-01 00:59:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Zozoll Neblyn
Markus Reese wrote:
[ So why don' the good fights happen?

Killboards

So ships can be replaced, there are reasons and accessibility to fights. Why don't people put up a good fight? Cause one ship loss on the killboards is horrible! Our efficiency has dropped and people will question the virility of our e-peen!

If it wasn't for those stupid killboards, people would only be concerned about winning. I mean if that was the case, people would fight to the last ship or damned close. You lose 75% of your ships to take out their fleet? Sounds like a win. There are other ways to bring tactics into it as well? Killboards just give a very quantifiable value to win and loss. Has no value in gameplay. The only concept of win or loss in a fight should be the result of the win or loss. Killboards are fun, and nice to be able to share the results of an awesome battle, but they just prevent more than are shared.


It's not the killboard's fault. It's fleets foolishly choosing to place a high value on them.

If you have a bad killboard, everyone out there starts thinking you're easy prey. And well.... if you're not easy prey, then having them think you are could be a good thing.

It just takes one fleet breaking out of the mold. Getting a bad killboard from their guerilla tactic play, having someone try to make a move on them, and then slaughtering whoever took the bait (maybe even claiming their territory.)

The rest of Eve would soon realize killboards don't matter as much as they appear to matter.

edit: add:

I'm surprised there aren't more players out there making "bad killboard" alts.
Celise Katelo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#97 - 2015-09-01 01:19:34 UTC
This topic is going places... Shocked

EVEBoard ...Just over 60million skill points, each skill was chosen for a reason. I closed my eyes & clicked another skill to train... "BINGO...!!!" ... "This time i got something usefull"
Tiagra May
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2015-09-01 01:24:28 UTC
Kapitan Rozrabiaka wrote:
i agree with you.

there should be some dedicated server for people who want to role play just 1 character.


Its called Star Citizen
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#99 - 2015-09-01 02:17:11 UTC
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:
It just takes one fleet breaking out of the mold. Getting a bad killboard from their guerilla tactic play, having someone try to make a move on them, and then slaughtering whoever took the bait (maybe even claiming their territory.)

Yeah, after they lost that revenant, we thought moa would be easy but...

we were wrong.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#100 - 2015-09-01 02:54:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Malt Zedong wrote:
And people who treat eve as just a game and go around blowing things up most of the times make a point of seeking the people who value their eve things to make them stop being like that. For no ingame reason, just to **** those people off.

Citation to verifiable data required for the bold part.