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[Proposal] Eliminate Broker Minimum Fee on Courier Contracts and Base on Collateral Value
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Zhu Khan
Khanid Arbitrage Incorporated
#1 - 2012-01-03 17:47:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhu Khan
Having started a hauler alt, I feel there may be room for improvement in the Courier Contract system. As it stands now, there is little reason for anyone to create a short-distance, low collateral, low reward courier contract due to the Broker minimum fee of 10,000ISK. As such, most contracts tend to be a little pricer with subsuqently higher (often times hilariously so) collateral requirements. I'd love to see the Broker Minimum removed. If it were approved, I would anticipate an influx in courier scams spamming the system. To balance that, I would suggest changing the Broker Fee basis to the collateral requirement, rather than the reward (or maybe make it based on the higher of the two). It even makes sense in game since the broker would be safeguarding both the reward money and the collateral. Scams can still take place, but there would be a requirement for more skin in the game from the scammer. At the end of the day, it also opens the door for low-collateral, low-reward, short-haul contracts. Thanks in advance, sorry it isn't a pew-pew suggestion.

After review, I've updated my proposal below. Unreasonably high collateral keeps rookie haulers out and absolutely encourages scamming to the point that there isn't really a viable courier contract system. The basic suggestion is changing the deposit and brokerage fee basis to the collateral requirement rather than the reward and eliminating the 1/10th reduction on courier contracts.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-01-03 17:53:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Draconis
Zhu Khan wrote:
Having started a hauler alt, I feel there may be room for improvement in the Courier Contract system. As it stands now, there is little reason for anyone to create a short-distance, low reward courier contract due to the Broker minimum fee of 10,000ISK. As such, most contracts tend to be a little pricer with subsuqently higher (often times hilariously so) collateral requirements. I'd love to see the Broker Minimum removed. If it were approved, I would anticipate an influx in courier scams spamming the system. To balance that, I would suggest changing the Broker Fee basis to the collateral requirement, rather than the reward (or maybe make it based on the higher of the two). It even makes sense in game since the broker would be safeguarding both the reward money and the collateral. Scams can still take place, but there would be a requirement for more skin in the game from the scammer. At the end of the day, it also opens the door for low-collateral, low-reward, short-haul contracts. Thanks in advance, sorry it isn't a pew-pew suggestion.


Not supporting for 2 reasons.

1: The fee is a fraction of a penny as far as worth is concern...its nothing.

2: Courier contracts in high sec are a ####ing joke. As a freighter pilot myself...public contracts are an insult to common sense and nothing more than a stupid scam.

Collaterals require you to have a obscene fortune to haul pittiance to overkill in cargo with 1/100000th of the value for a reward.

Too easily scammed...and few actaully use it legitimatly...and IF your doing this for a business..that implies your already carrying a fortune in your wallet to afford it....which means your only complaniing about your bottom line.

Not convinced...I may change my mind with enough reasonnig...but this isn't a frequent subject to be sure.

This kind of industry is a quiet private one...who you know...and not easily found. Too many people prey and gank for lol's and iskies as it is. A legit business...but this change I think accomplishes nearly nothing.

PS: I thought there was a skill you can train to lower the fee?

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Zhu Khan
Khanid Arbitrage Incorporated
#3 - 2012-01-03 18:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhu Khan
Drake Draconis wrote:
1: The fee is a fraction of a penny as far as worth is concern...its nothing.
I agree that 10K is not an insurmountable obstacle, but when you just want someone to deliver a 30K-50K skill book to you a few jumps away, it's a significant percentage of the base price. I conceed that it's a pretty niche occurrence, but I guess I just don't see the reason for the minimum in the first place. I guess to prevent spamming the Contracts system?

Drake Draconis wrote:
2: Courier contracts in high sec are a ####ing joke. As a freighter pilot myself...public contracts are an insult to common sense and nothing more than a stupid scam.

Collaterals require you to have a obscene fortune to haul pittiance to overkill in cargo with 1/100000th of the value for a reward.

Too easily scammed...and few actaully use it legitimatly...and IF your doing this for a business..that implies your already carrying a fortune in your wallet to afford it....which means your only complaniing about your bottom line.

Not convinced...I may change my mind with enough reasonnig...but this isn't a frequent subject to be sure.

I think those who are blowing up haulers for the ISK are usually doing it for the collateral gain. If you base the brokerage fee (which the issuer does not get back) as a percentage of the collateral (maybe even a significant percentage), it would probably reduce the likelihood of scamming (as some ships will probably get through) and make hi-sec hauling a more serious occupation.

Drake Draconis wrote:
PS: I thought there was a skill you can train to lower the fee?
I believe Broker Relations can reduce the fee, but there is always at least a 10,000ISK minimum.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-01-03 20:46:22 UTC
Zhu Khan wrote:
I agree that 10K is not an insurmountable obstacle, but when you just want someone to deliver a 30K-50K skill book to you a few jumps away, it's a significant percentage of the base price. I conceed that it's a pretty niche occurrence, but I guess I just don't see the reason for the minimum in the first place. I guess to prevent spamming the Contracts system?

I think those who are blowing up haulers for the ISK are usually doing it for the collateral gain. If you base the brokerage fee (which the issuer does not get back) as a percentage of the collateral (maybe even a significant percentage), it would probably reduce the likelihood of scamming (as some ships will probably get through) and make hi-sec hauling a more serious occupation.

I believe Broker Relations can reduce the fee, but there is always at least a 10,000ISK minimum.



There's not much to be had in the changes if thats the case....all your focusing on is just the brkoerage fee right?

Is it really that big of a deal? Can you give a valid example that its a problem? Aside from a frsutration or nuscaince.

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Zhu Khan
Khanid Arbitrage Incorporated
#5 - 2012-01-03 22:21:19 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
There's not much to be had in the changes if thats the case....all your focusing on is just the brkoerage fee right?

Is it really that big of a deal? Can you give a valid example that its a problem? Aside from a frsutration or nuscaince.

Not particularly, only the niche case of rookie haulers who can't afford unnecessarily inflated collateral charges. As I work through it, I think there is more benefit to be gained from the second part of the proposal than the first. Tying the brokerage fee to the collateral amount as the base instead of the reward would probably do a lot more to lower collateral and open the market to rookie haulers than eliminating the minimum brokerage fee.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-01-03 22:27:52 UTC
Zhu Khan wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
There's not much to be had in the changes if thats the case....all your focusing on is just the brkoerage fee right?

Is it really that big of a deal? Can you give a valid example that its a problem? Aside from a frsutration or nuscaince.

Not particularly, only the niche case of rookie haulers who can't afford unnecessarily inflated collateral charges. As I work through it, I think there is more benefit to be gained from the second part of the proposal than the first. Tying the brokerage fee to the collateral amount as the base instead of the reward would probably do a lot more to lower collateral and open the market to rookie haulers than eliminating the minimum brokerage fee.



The problem with the bulk of these "fedex" contracts is the bloody collateral...not the brokerage fee.

Just tossing it in as the base price would only make it go up..not encourage it to go down.

Perhaps knowing what your shipping would allow you to set that collateral at whatever you want...but if you wish to "surpress" and "hide" contents...youd be capped out at a certain ammount collateral wise...wild idea off the cuff.

But don't think its gonna do much. Ugh

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Zhu Khan
Khanid Arbitrage Incorporated
#7 - 2012-01-03 23:06:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhu Khan
Drake Draconis wrote:
The problem with the bulk of these "fedex" contracts is the bloody collateral...not the brokerage fee.

Just tossing it in as the base price would only make it go up..not encourage it to go down.

Perhaps knowing what your shipping would allow you to set that collateral at whatever you want...but if you wish to "surpress" and "hide" contents...youd be capped out at a certain ammount collateral wise...wild idea off the cuff.

But don't think its gonna do much. Ugh


Damn forum ate my post. My modified proposal is this: base the deposit and brokerage fees on the collateral requirement rather than the reward. Here's an actual contract in Gallente space at the moment:

Reward: 15,000 ISK
Collateral 15,000,000 ISK

Under the current system (I think the percentages are correct, but I could be wrong) the player issuing the contract provided the following:

10,000 ISK Deposit (Minimum) (Refunded if courier fails)
10,000 ISK Brokerage Fee (Minimum) (Non-refundable)
15,000 Reward (Refunded if the courier fails)

If the contract is not picked up and expires, the issuer is out 20,000 ISK (Deposit and Brokerage Fee)
If the contract is accepted and completed, the issuer is out 25,000 ISK (Brokerage Fee and Reward)
If the contract is accepted and failed, the issuer gains 14,990,000 (Collateral less Brokerage Fee)

Under a system where the collateral is used to set the deposit and brokerage fee (and eliminating the 1/10th rule that currently exists for courier contracts), the player issuing the contract would provide the following:

150,000 ISK Deposit (15,000,000 * 1.0%) (Refunded if courier fails)
60,000 ISK Brokerage Fee (15,000,000 * 0.4%) (Non-refundable)
15,000 Reward (Refunded if the courier fails)

If the contract is not picked up and expires, the issuer is out 210,000 ISK (Deposit and Brokerage Fee)
If the contract is accepted and completed, the issuer is out 75,000 ISK (Brokerage Fee and Reward)
If the contract is accepted and failed, the issuer gains 14,940,000 (Collateral less Brokerage Fee)

The reward for the scam is still in place, but the barrier to entry is much higher and there is a much greater loss if the garbage contracts aren't accepted (10 times in this case).

I don't think it solves the problem in its entirety, but I think it would help to lower collateral requirements and bring rookie haulers into the mix.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-01-04 01:21:10 UTC
Zhu Khan wrote:

Damn forum ate my post. My modified proposal is this: base the deposit and brokerage fees on the collateral requirement rather than the reward. Here's an actual contract in Gallente space at the moment:

Reward: 15,000 ISK
Collateral 15,000,000 ISK

Under the current system (I think the percentages are correct, but I could be wrong) the player issuing the contract provided the following:

10,000 ISK Deposit (Minimum) (Refunded if courier fails)
10,000 ISK Brokerage Fee (Minimum) (Non-refundable)
15,000 Reward (Refunded if the courier fails)

If the contract is not picked up and expires, the issuer is out 20,000 ISK (Deposit and Brokerage Fee)
If the contract is accepted and completed, the issuer is out 25,000 ISK (Brokerage Fee and Reward)
If the contract is accepted and failed, the issuer gains 14,990,000 (Collateral less Brokerage Fee)

Under a system where the collateral is used to set the deposit and brokerage fee (and eliminating the 1/10th rule that currently exists for courier contracts), the player issuing the contract would provide the following:

150,000 ISK Deposit (15,000,000 * 1.0%) (Refunded if courier fails)
60,000 ISK Brokerage Fee (15,000,000 * 0.4%) (Non-refundable)
15,000 Reward (Refunded if the courier fails)

If the contract is not picked up and expires, the issuer is out 210,000 ISK (Deposit and Brokerage Fee)
If the contract is accepted and completed, the issuer is out 75,000 ISK (Brokerage Fee and Reward)
If the contract is accepted and failed, the issuer gains 14,940,000 (Collateral less Brokerage Fee)

The reward for the scam is still in place, but the barrier to entry is much higher and there is a much greater loss if the garbage contracts aren't accepted (10 times in this case).

I don't think it solves the problem in its entirety, but I think it would help to lower collateral requirements and bring rookie haulers into the mix.



I'm sorry....either its because im approaching the end of a very long day at me job....or this just doesn't seem to add up.

I get what your tring to accomplish...but the key factor as far as I'm concerned is not the broker fee...but collateral.

This will not stop people from charging outragous collateral...and **** poor rewards.

Wrapping the brokerage fee into the collateral does not change that...your presuming its going to lower it...or make people put smaller ammounts in.

I say it will not change one thing...

And even at the numbers your indicating...its still very small pittiance..perhaps an another big time hauler would care to offer an 2nd opinion?

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Zhu Khan
Khanid Arbitrage Incorporated
#9 - 2012-01-04 04:36:18 UTC
Thanks for your input in any event Drake. I think we both agree that the outrageous collateral requirements on so many contracts is detrimental to the system. I just think the population would be more open to changing what the fees are based on rather than direct regulation of collateral requirements.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2012-01-04 17:54:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Draconis
Zhu Khan wrote:
Thanks for your input in any event Drake. I think we both agree that the outrageous collateral requirements on so many contracts is detrimental to the system. I just think the population would be more open to changing what the fees are based on rather than direct regulation of collateral requirements.


I've been thinking for a very long time that change would be good for fedex contracts...but I've failed multiple times to come up with something feasible for it.

I think half the time people do not cnosider the true message they give in making such things.

I can recall countless times where'd I smack talk the living crap out of someone in Rens for making a 200mil collateral contract to ship 3 jumps in high sec for 2 milllion ISK reward.

Seriously?

Oh and the cargo amount is freighter sized no less.

Maybe the reward should be at LEAST 50-75% of the collateral value of your cargo...lets be serious here...if its that valuable to you...then you better be eff'ing serious about getting it shipped there.

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Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-01-04 18:43:51 UTC
People only put such low rewards on contracts because other people will accept the contracts. It's the market that sets the price, and it should never be dictated by a hard limit. Sure, I know that 500k ISK is not nearly enough of a reward to move 1b worth of stuff halfway across known space - but if I also know that if I put it up, somoene will move it within the next 24 hours, why should I waste any more ISK?
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-01-04 18:50:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Draconis
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
People only put such low rewards on contracts because other people will accept the contracts. It's the market that sets the price, and it should never be dictated by a hard limit. Sure, I know that 500k ISK is not nearly enough of a reward to move 1b worth of stuff halfway across known space - but if I also know that if I put it up, somoene will move it within the next 24 hours, why should I waste any more ISK?



Very poor assumption...I've seen contracts rot on the market with such settings...im sure someone or some filthy rich (with way too much time on his hands) pilot will move it...but the incentive for new hualers is very poor. In other words the bar for starting in that market...and I used to be one of these OCD pilots....is way to bloody high. Some of us dont have that kind of time or the money to spend on PLEX's to cash in for ISK to start capital up to haul crap with insane collaterals and *emphasis* **** poor rewards.

And furthermore....those in alliances like ours ( o/ o7) why hire when you can get your m8's to do it for you with 0 collateral and a bit of ISK to line pockets...or a nuet hauler.

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Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-01-04 20:02:58 UTC
I sincerely and honestly do not understand this proposal. The overwhelming number of scam courier contracts are based on the inability to deliver, not on ganking for collateral. I'm still clueless as to what the desired effect of the proposed change is.

Bokononist

 
Sama Weaver
NurdCorp
#14 - 2012-01-05 23:23:27 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
Zhu Khan wrote:
Having started a hauler alt, I feel there may be room for improvement in the Courier Contract system. As it stands now, there is little reason for anyone to create a short-distance, low reward courier contract due to the Broker minimum fee of 10,000ISK. As such, most contracts tend to be a little pricer with subsuqently higher (often times hilariously so) collateral requirements. I'd love to see the Broker Minimum removed. If it were approved, I would anticipate an influx in courier scams spamming the system. To balance that, I would suggest changing the Broker Fee basis to the collateral requirement, rather than the reward (or maybe make it based on the higher of the two). It even makes sense in game since the broker would be safeguarding both the reward money and the collateral. Scams can still take place, but there would be a requirement for more skin in the game from the scammer. At the end of the day, it also opens the door for low-collateral, low-reward, short-haul contracts. Thanks in advance, sorry it isn't a pew-pew suggestion.


Not supporting for 2 reasons.

1: The fee is a fraction of a penny as far as worth is concern...its nothing.

2: Courier contracts in high sec are a ####ing joke. As a freighter pilot myself...public contracts are an insult to common sense and nothing more than a stupid scam.

Collaterals require you to have a obscene fortune to haul pittiance to overkill in cargo with 1/100000th of the value for a reward.

Too easily scammed...and few actaully use it legitimatly...and IF your doing this for a business..that implies your already carrying a fortune in your wallet to afford it....which means your only complaniing about your bottom line.

Not convinced...I may change my mind with enough reasonnig...but this isn't a frequent subject to be sure.

This kind of industry is a quiet private one...who you know...and not easily found. Too many people prey and gank for lol's and iskies as it is. A legit business...but this change I think accomplishes nearly nothing.

PS: I thought there was a skill you can train to lower the fee?


The courier contracty system is completely flawed, What CCP should do (I'd love to say they NEED to but that's laughable) is set restrictions on the range of variance between the collateral required to accept a courier contract and the reward for completing it. As it stands now, the only person who really benefits from the contract agreement is the person who created the contract.

A contract is set w/ a collateral rate of say 2.00 billion w/ a reward rate of 250.00 thousand (I could kill rats in .5 for more payout than that) reward and one of two things happens.

1 - The contract never gets picked up because most players floating around in high sec (expecting trolls to come out and start some **** here) don't have the amount that people ask for in collateral.

2- Those that do have the funds to 'buy' a contract, yes I said buy because that is really exactly what is happening, you're paying the contract owner to wait at a gate to come shoot you down and take your collateral and whatever loot may survive.

The mechanics of this system are so completely flawed that it goes largely and mostly unused and there is no profit to be had for anyone but the rare few who catch a sucker by some force of luck.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-01-06 00:04:46 UTC
Sama Weaver wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
Zhu Khan wrote:
Having started a hauler alt, I feel there may be room for improvement in the Courier Contract system. As it stands now, there is little reason for anyone to create a short-distance, low reward courier contract due to the Broker minimum fee of 10,000ISK. As such, most contracts tend to be a little pricer with subsuqently higher (often times hilariously so) collateral requirements. I'd love to see the Broker Minimum removed. If it were approved, I would anticipate an influx in courier scams spamming the system. To balance that, I would suggest changing the Broker Fee basis to the collateral requirement, rather than the reward (or maybe make it based on the higher of the two). It even makes sense in game since the broker would be safeguarding both the reward money and the collateral. Scams can still take place, but there would be a requirement for more skin in the game from the scammer. At the end of the day, it also opens the door for low-collateral, low-reward, short-haul contracts. Thanks in advance, sorry it isn't a pew-pew suggestion.


Not supporting for 2 reasons.

1: The fee is a fraction of a penny as far as worth is concern...its nothing.

2: Courier contracts in high sec are a ####ing joke. As a freighter pilot myself...public contracts are an insult to common sense and nothing more than a stupid scam.

Collaterals require you to have a obscene fortune to haul pittiance to overkill in cargo with 1/100000th of the value for a reward.

Too easily scammed...and few actaully use it legitimatly...and IF your doing this for a business..that implies your already carrying a fortune in your wallet to afford it....which means your only complaniing about your bottom line.

Not convinced...I may change my mind with enough reasonnig...but this isn't a frequent subject to be sure.

This kind of industry is a quiet private one...who you know...and not easily found. Too many people prey and gank for lol's and iskies as it is. A legit business...but this change I think accomplishes nearly nothing.

PS: I thought there was a skill you can train to lower the fee?


The courier contracty system is completely flawed, What CCP should do (I'd love to say they NEED to but that's laughable) is set restrictions on the range of variance between the collateral required to accept a courier contract and the reward for completing it. As it stands now, the only person who really benefits from the contract agreement is the person who created the contract.

A contract is set w/ a collateral rate of say 2.00 billion w/ a reward rate of 250.00 thousand (I could kill rats in .5 for more payout than that) reward and one of two things happens.

1 - The contract never gets picked up because most players floating around in high sec (expecting trolls to come out and start some **** here) don't have the amount that people ask for in collateral.

2- Those that do have the funds to 'buy' a contract, yes I said buy because that is really exactly what is happening, you're paying the contract owner to wait at a gate to come shoot you down and take your collateral and whatever loot may survive.

The mechanics of this system are so completely flawed that it goes largely and mostly unused and there is no profit to be had for anyone but the rare few who catch a sucker by some force of luck.


Exactly...and In my eyes its not so much the collateral thats the problem as per se....I get why they do it...even if its a scam.

Its the stupid assed rewards....its crap.

and I've already indicated that a possible way to fix this is to force the collateral to be a significant portion of the refund...as much as 75 to 90% of the value they decalre.

If your really that serious about shipping that....then you damn well better be able to afford it becasue the risk should be shared...not one sided.

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Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-01-06 18:07:57 UTC
This is one of the more bizarre threads I've seen in this subforum. From what I can piece together, OP wants to discourage bait/scam courier contracts by requiring an extra deposit. The supposition, if I read it correctly, is that few people will want to put up the extra money. It doesn't seem to factor in several things, namely that most suicide ganks don't use bait contracts, most gankers/scammers are not ISK poor, and if ganker/scammer is going to get the ISK back anyway, why would they care?

Could someone please tell me what the 1/10th rule is?

Bokononist

 
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-01-06 22:47:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Sama Weaver wrote:
A contract is set w/ a collateral rate of say 2.00 billion w/ a reward rate of 250.00 thousand (I could kill rats in .5 for more payout than that) reward and one of two things happens.

1 - The contract never gets picked up because most players floating around in high sec (expecting trolls to come out and start some **** here) don't have the amount that people ask for in collateral.

2- Those that do have the funds to 'buy' a contract, yes I said buy because that is really exactly what is happening, you're paying the contract owner to wait at a gate to come shoot you down and take your collateral and whatever loot may survive.

The mechanics of this system are so completely flawed that it goes largely and mostly unused and there is no profit to be had for anyone but the rare few who catch a sucker by some force of luck.


3) Contract gets picked up and succesfully delivered.

At the peak of my business I used to issue about a dozen freighter-sized couriers every week, with the reward being about 0.1% of the collateral. Every single one got picked up and delivered within three days, a majority in less than a day.

Just because it's not a sufficient enough reward for you doesn't mean that I should be forced to pay more if there are people for whom it is. Or do you think that there should be a mandatory minimal sell price of minerals too, because "there is no profit to be had for anyone" in highsec mining?

Drake Draconis wrote:
If your really that serious about shipping that....then you damn well better be able to afford it becasue the risk should be shared...not one sided.


I am able to afford it, because there are people willing to pick it up at that price.
Zhu Khan
Khanid Arbitrage Incorporated
#18 - 2012-01-06 23:44:43 UTC
Zaxix wrote:
Could someone please tell me what the 1/10th rule is?

The brokerage fees and deposits for courier contracts are 1/10th item contracts. Under Taxes and Depsits here.

The main point of the proposal is that the system currently does not require enough of a potential loss to prevent junk contracts. If the fees were higher (since I think it seems a little heavy handed to hard cap the collateral), it's going to hurt more when their junk contracts don't get picked up. Right now they're out 10,000 ISK unless the contract reward is astronomical. EVE Players frequently talk about risk vs. reward. In this situation, there isn't nearly enough risk for the issuer.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-01-07 02:16:57 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:

I am able to afford it, because there are people willing to pick it up at that price.


Not everyone has that kind of ISK Abdiel....

My target crowd is the small time freighter pilot who just bought his/her first fenrir or something.

Collateral prices you set might be reasonable to be sure..but if you live in high sec...you'd find that most contracts are just flat obscenely expensive or utterly ridiculous.


And I still stand by what I said...we aren't likely going to hire out or set colalteral when we have a nice fat alliance full of haulers for out beck and call.

this is aimed at people who are just not that well off.

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Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-01-07 04:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Drake Draconis wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:

I am able to afford it, because there are people willing to pick it up at that price.


Not everyone has that kind of ISK Abdiel....


Not everyone has 1m to pay to get 800k m^3 of their stuff hauled and save themselves an hour of work? Then perhaps what you're doing doesn't require moving 800k m^3 of stuff around?

Quote:
My target crowd is the small time freighter pilot who just bought his/her first fenrir or something.


Then don't force us to pay more to people who are willing to haul for pretty much free.

A small-time freighter pilot who just bought their first fenrir should have considered how much can they make and what competition will they face before buying said fenrir.

Quote:
And I still stand by what I said...we aren't likely going to hire out or set colalteral when we have a nice fat alliance full of haulers for out beck and call.


I wouldn't want the time of my alliance members to be wasted hauling crap around highsec, when you can pay almost nothing to someone else to do it for you. (Maybe to that guy with a shiny new fenrir.)



Once again, it is an open market. As long as someone is willing to move my stuff for 1m, I don't see any reason to pay anyone 10m for the same job. And forcing me to do so is against the core principles of EVE economy - just like the example I gave above, mandatory minimum prices for sell orders.