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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#581 - 2015-08-31 15:40:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Whitehound wrote:
You mean the ISKs that I got in exchange?
No, I mean the wealth you lost.

Quote:
Fact is
…the market is PvP, irrespective of how desperately you want to redefine it as some nonsensical self-contradictory term you've just invented because you want to be wrong, as you always are when words and meanings come up.

Quote:
you do not even know what I am selling and where I am selling it.
irrelevant. You are still losing to other players who are competing against you. You know, PvP.
Just because you are collateral damage does not mean it wasn't the competition and opposition of other players that created your losses.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#582 - 2015-08-31 15:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Whitehound wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
"Losing stuff" is not a condition of PvP.

Then what is?

Player interacting against other players interests, competetively.

No, because that is just as much the definition of competitive PvE.
No that's called PvP. If my interests are in opposition to yours and we are playing the same game, it's essentially me, a player, vs you, another player; hence P(layer)v(s)P(layer).

Making up terms to make yourself look clever does the exact opposite.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Whitehound
#583 - 2015-08-31 15:46:22 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
No.

For example:
We are both running the 100m race.

There is absolutely zero PvE effect in this scenario.

Yes, there is. The track you are running on, the finishing line you are crossing, the clock and the rules defining the victor are all part of the environment.

If want to see it as fighting the other racer then be my guest, but you are not actually engaging in a physical fight even if you could, but rather the rules prevent you from doing so as it would disqualify you. The fight against the other runner is only in your head. He might however not even notice you, because he could be entirely focused on the track, his heartbeat and breathing just to achieve his best performance.

Only if you were allowed to knock the other runner down, push him off the track or otherwise directly engage/assault him would it constitute a direct fight - a PvP - between you two.

Boxing is PvP. Running a track is not.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Salvos Rhoska
#584 - 2015-08-31 15:47:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Whitehound wrote:
Boxing is PvP. Running a track is not.


If the 100m is not PvP, then what is it?

I think it might be a language issue for you, but you are unduly hung up on associating PvP with violence or loss, neither of which is a criteria or a requirement.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Avvy
Doomheim
#585 - 2015-08-31 15:47:45 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
"Player(s) versus player(s), or PvP, is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants. This is in contrast to games where players compete against computer controlled opponents and/or players, which is correspondingly referred to as player versus environment (PvE). "

"PvP can be broadly used to describe any game, or aspect of a game, where players compete against each other" In computer role-playing games, PvP is sometimes called player killing or PKing.

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player





FYP

You missed a bit of the quote, the bit I added bolded and underlined.
Bellatrix Invicta
Doomheim
#586 - 2015-08-31 15:49:20 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
No.

For example:
We are both running the 100m race.

There is absolutely zero PvE effect in this scenario.

Yes, there is. The track you are running on, the finishing line you are crossing, the clock and the rules defining the victor are all part of the environment.

If want to see it as fighting the other racer then be my guest, but you are not actually engaging in a physical fight even if you could, but rather the rules prevent you from doing so as it would disqualify you. The fight against the other runner is only in your head. He might however not even notice you, because he could be entirely focused on the track, his heartbeat and breathing just to achieve his best performance.

Only if you were allowed to knock the other runner down, push him off the track or otherwise directly engage/assault him would it constitute a direct fight - a PvP - between you two.

Boxing is PvP. Running a track is not.


Even running alone against the clock is PvP; you're competing against yourself.

Remove those rose-colored glasses you're wearing, friend. Everything in Eve is PvP.

If you think you've won, think again.

The CODE always wins.
Salvos Rhoska
#587 - 2015-08-31 15:50:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Avvy wrote:
FYP

You missed a bit of the quote, the bit I added bolded and underlined.

It says "sometimes".

There are many PvP situations that do not involve player killing (PKi), but which are nonetheless still PvP.

That's why it says "sometimes". As in PvP is called PK, when it involves PK.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#588 - 2015-08-31 15:51:03 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
No.

For example:
We are both running the 100m race.

There is absolutely zero PvE effect in this scenario.

Yes, there is. The track you are running on, the finishing line you are crossing, the clock and the rules defining the victor are all part of the environment.

If want to see it as fighting the other racer then be my guest, but you are not actually engaging in a physical fight even if you could, but rather the rules prevent you from doing so as it would disqualify you. The fight against the other runner is only in your head. He might however not even notice you, because he could be entirely focused on the track, his heartbeat and breathing just to achieve his best performance.

Only if you were allowed to knock the other runner down, push him off the track or otherwise directly engage/assault him would it constitute a direct fight - a PvP - between you two.

Boxing is PvP. Running a track is not.

What about poker eh, I think that would be far more apt a parallel, where would you come Down on that?

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#589 - 2015-08-31 15:51:10 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
No.

For example:
We are both running the 100m race.

There is absolutely zero PvE effect in this scenario.

Yes, there is. The track you are running on, the finishing line you are crossing, the clock and the rules defining the victor are all part of the environment.

If want to see it as fighting the other racer then be my guest, but you are not actually engaging in a physical fight even if you could, but rather the rules prevent you from doing so as it would disqualify you. The fight against the other runner is only in your head. He might however not even notice you, because he could be entirely focused on the track, his heartbeat and breathing just to achieve his best performance.

Only if you were allowed to knock the other runner down, push him off the track or otherwise directly engage/assault him would it constitute a direct fight - a PvP - between you two.

Boxing is PvP. Running a track is not.
Both are competition and in gaming terms would be considered as PvP.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#590 - 2015-08-31 15:51:59 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Yes, there is. The track you are running on, the finishing line you are crossing, the clock and the rules defining the victor are all part of the environment.
…but they're not the competition.

Quote:
Boxing is PvP. Running a track is not.
They are both PvP, and for the exact same reason.
Avvy
Doomheim
#591 - 2015-08-31 15:52:16 UTC
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
No.

For example:
We are both running the 100m race.

There is absolutely zero PvE effect in this scenario.

Yes, there is. The track you are running on, the finishing line you are crossing, the clock and the rules defining the victor are all part of the environment.

If want to see it as fighting the other racer then be my guest, but you are not actually engaging in a physical fight even if you could, but rather the rules prevent you from doing so as it would disqualify you. The fight against the other runner is only in your head. He might however not even notice you, because he could be entirely focused on the track, his heartbeat and breathing just to achieve his best performance.

Only if you were allowed to knock the other runner down, push him off the track or otherwise directly engage/assault him would it constitute a direct fight - a PvP - between you two.

Boxing is PvP. Running a track is not.


Even running alone against the clock is PvP; you're competing against yourself.

Remove those rose-colored glasses you're wearing, friend. Everything in Eve is PvP.



So even PvE is PvP, that makes it simpler.
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
#592 - 2015-08-31 15:52:30 UTC
@ Jenn

You misunderstood me Jenn, please go back and read my posts.

Aaron wrote:
Ok Here is my 2 cents worth.

Too many Eve players are bullies and you pick on weaker pilots till they get frustrated with the game and leave. I wish more of you would consider that your own actions contribute to people leaving.

This is a dark and brutal experience where there is no sympathy for anything, not everyone can handle this vibe so be mindful of this when you want to blame CCP for numbers dropping.

I am not complaining about dark and brutal, I like it and enjoy avoiding it or finding tactics to counter it. I've prepared a small role play to push my point further;

Noob: You killed my exhumer, it took ages for me to grind for that.

Ganker: Who gives a ****, go and play WOW, or hello kitty online.

Noob: Ok I will, Bye.

This is the norm in Eve, accept that your actions have consequence and accept that it is partly you who shapes the game and affects numbers.


I have no problem with brutal and dark and Eve being rife with bullies, as I said in previous posts I enjoy avoiding it and finding tactics to survive.

My point is that the same people who are here crying about numbers dropping are the same ones who bully noobs, pve'ers etc. What I am saying is that bullying and trolling whine forums has a consequence, It has made people leave. I'm only saying for the bullies and trolls to accept this and not come on here crying because numbers are dropping.

Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Giaus Felix
Doomheim
#593 - 2015-08-31 15:55:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Giaus Felix
Avvy wrote:
So even PvE is PvP, that makes it simpler.
In the specific case of Eve, this would be true.

A very large percentage, if not all, of the PvE content in Eve is designed to put you in conflict with other players, whether it be for resources, market share, power, influence, e-peen size etc.

I came for the spaceships, I stayed for the tears.
Salvos Rhoska
#594 - 2015-08-31 15:56:53 UTC
Aaron wrote:
---

Nobody is whining about new players leaving the game due to being faced with the harsh environment of EVE.

This has always been the case, and will always be the case.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Whitehound
#595 - 2015-08-31 15:57:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
You mean the ISKs that I got in exchange?
No, I mean the wealth you lost.

The ISKs make me wealthy. It is exactly what I wanted and what I got.

You did not succeed in making me lose anything. So where do we stand now?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#596 - 2015-08-31 15:59:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
Remove those rose-colored glasses you're wearing, friend. Everything in Eve is PvP.

It's not rose-coloured glasses. He just doesn't understand words, and substitutes his home-made definitions for the pre-existing ones he does not want to know or hear about.

Avvy wrote:
So even PvE is PvP, that makes it simpler.
In EVE, yes, since it's all subject to player competition — often very explicitly and purposefully so. There are roughly two AI interactions you can do in this game where other players can't affect you in some way: clicking the “request mission” button and clicking the “complete mission” button. Note that it's only the button-clicking that is exempt from the rule, not all the gameplay that goes on before, between, or after.

Whitehound wrote:
The ISKs make me wealthy. It is exactly what I wanted and what I got.
…and yet you lost wealth in the process of competing with other players — you know, PvP — pretty much unavoidably and inherently, all due to how the market operates.
What you wanted does not change what actually happened.
Whitehound
#597 - 2015-08-31 16:00:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Yes, there is. The track you are running on, the finishing line you are crossing, the clock and the rules defining the victor are all part of the environment.
…but they're not the competition.

Have you ever run 100m? Or a Marathon? Do the later and tell me you did not compete against the environment when you ran 42km and the road made your feet hurt and bleed.

You actually have to get up from your computer and move your feet if you wanted to run. Say Hello to gravity for me when you try to get out of your chair.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#598 - 2015-08-31 16:00:55 UTC
Now, about those "declining numbers". Concurrent users, averaged over a week or more:

Last week: 20K
Last 2 weeks: 20K
Last month: 21K
Last 3 months 24K
Last 5 months: 25K
Best week (in early 2013) 36K

So we are not down by half from the best, but its close. But; that best includes more botters than we have now, and more key broadcasters than we have now, as CCP has cracked down on both in the interim. Lately, eve has not been dropping, but has been relatively stable.

Note that its hard to get data from periods longer than 5 months from the eve-offline site. For some reason Chribba's averaging algorithm changes for periods of 6 months, and gives results inconsistent with shorter periods.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#599 - 2015-08-31 16:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Whitehound wrote:
Have you ever run 100m? Or a Marathon?
Fun fact: the track is not competing against you in either. In fact, it doesn't do anything — it's a track. Neither do the finishing line or the clock or the rules.

…or, well… the clock does something: it measures time, but that's not the event you're competing in.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#600 - 2015-08-31 16:06:15 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Now, about those "declining numbers". Concurrent users, averaged over a week or more:
So we are not down by half from the best, but its close. But; that best includes more botters than we have now, and more key broadcasters than we have now, as CCP has cracked down on both in the interim. Lately, eve has not been dropping, but has been relatively stable.


That is the best point. In the survivability factor, there will always be new people interested if eve stays modern but botting and the multiboxing really removes multiplayer part of the game. Most people multi those little roles that are a great thing for new players to be involved with and much of the multitask.

Here is another way to look at it. Those numbers probably mean what.... 100k active accounts? That is still respectable money per month. If it covers server maintenance and staff wages plus gets any other shareholders a reasonable payment. It really doesnt matter. The recent changes have reduced numbers but do open up the game. Like say time and time again, CCP has given us the tools, but it is up to the players to make newbs want to stay.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.