These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Local shield repping modules

Author
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#1 - 2015-08-31 03:04:28 UTC
So its been a couple years since the shield boosting rebalance was done. I have for 99% of my game time been a shield pilot and local reps is somewhat of an interest to me.

What I would to know is how people feel about the navy shield boosters, how they stack up against similar boosters in their own class and to make a case for them in use over the relatively common dedspace versions.

Is there ever a case use for t1/meta and t2? Has the ASB fallen from its pedestal? Share with me your thoughts.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#2 - 2015-08-31 03:31:38 UTC
I fly alot of active shield tank fit so I'll provide a comprehensive write up of my opinion.

Navy Shield Boosters
Navy shield boosters are very niche, they cycle faster than T2 but have the same cap and boost stats IIRC. This means they provide more burst tank for more cap. Shield boosters are generally very cap hungry and it's not often that you'd have the spare cap to go for a navy booster. They do however, take up less fittings so it's sometimes used for fitting reasons. For example I run a Cyclone with a Dread Guristas XL booster purely for CPU reasons. The saving grace is that they are reasonably priced so they definitely have their niche.

Deadspace Shield Boosters
Another reason that Navy boosters are niche is how cheap Pith boosters are. Pith boosters are especially useful for PvP where they give you a big boost while consuming the same cap as a T2 booster. Guristas sites are farmed to hell and back which makes these booster dirt cheap. A Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster will only set you back 60+mil which is a steal for the power it gives.

Gist boosters on the other hand are very cap efficient but also very expensive, partly due to supply but in a larger part due to demand (carebears LOVE their cap stable fits no matter how much you tell them otherwise). Despite their price Gist boosters are still really solid but you need to think carefully if you're willing to blow the big isk on that cap efficiency.

T2/Meta/T1 Shield Boosters
As for T1/Meta/T2 shield boosters, they are used the least I'd say. Mostly because the boost they provide is quite weak to give you any sort of worthwhile tank. You're usually better off going for buffer, pimping up to deadspace, or using an ASB. The only T2 shield boosters I see getting used (in decent fits) is the Medium Shield Booster II on frigates like the Hawk/Breacher and to a lesser extent some T3Ds. The Large T2 is far too weak for Cruisers, while the XL T2 is VERY CPU hungry and difficult to fit on hulls smaller than a Battleship, and if you're going for a Battleship, you're better off with a low end Pith since it's well worth the cost relative to the cost of the hull.

Ancillary Shield Boosters
While definitely not as broken as they were when first introduced. ASBs are a very powerful module. I like to think of ASBs in 2 ways, first as more of a buffer module where you fit a single XLASB on a Cruiser/Battlecruiser or a single MASB on a Frigate. This is a very slot efficient buffer as if you have the spare fitting, an oversized ancillary booster will give you more EHP per clip than their buffer counterparts (assuming you don't get alphaed straight through and that you don't overboost). In this setup there is a small chance (assuming you kill off enough dps or kite away) that you get a reload on your ASB which gives you massive EHP potential.

The second way to see ASBs is as a sustained active tank. In this sort of setup you run 2-3 ASBs of the same size, you cycle one and while the first is reloading, you cycle the second. This allows you to keep up a constant 'active' tank for as long as you have cap boosters and is incredibly powerful because of the capless effect of ASBs. Prime examples are the dual MASB Hawk and dual XLASB Sleipnir which are both capable of fielding massive active tanks while being immune to cap warfare. However I feel this setup is balanced by the fact that fitting 2 oversized ancillary boosters is very heavy on fittings and requires a fair bit of sacrifice. Additionally, if you're running 2 boosters and you're being forced to run one booster flat out, you won't get your reload on your first before you die so while the EFT tank numbers seem huge, they are much lower in reality. This can be remedied by running 3 ASBs but that is usually a fitting nightmare on any ship.


Overall I think most shield boosters have their place and T2/Meta/T1 is falling behind not so much because they are bad, but because ASBs and cheap Pith boosters kind of obsoleted them. A small buff for these wouldn't be bad but at the same time I don't feel it's necessary either.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#3 - 2015-08-31 04:27:44 UTC
I agree with most of your points. I feel like we have at least one redundant class of booster (probably the small) which just doesn't offer enough as it is.

Regarding price of navy boosters I disagree and have my made my thoughts known on the matter elsewhere (its the equation of tags/LP) but if we were talking pirate faction modules then you're absolutely spot on. For reference, cal navy medium booster is 120mil and DG booster is 30mil.

I personally haven't used ASBs very much except on fits that already had buffer because of the reason you mentioned, they're not really there to boost as an active setup they're there to complement some kind of pseudo-buffer fit where instead of an LSE which runs out as it takes damage the ASB refills itself.. eventually.

My corrections for the shield booster rebalance would probably be as follows:
leave dedspace alone for now
leave ASBs alone for now
instigate a new tiericide on shield boosters with the following types: t1 meta1, compact, restrained and t2, storyline and faction being subject to rebalance.
faction boosters like CN and DG get a bonus to rep amount by a small % to equal t2, retain all other stats.
raise the cap cost of gistums to equal their faction variants
raise the cap cost of pith's so that they're kind of reflective of the faction type instead of being grossly more effective. I would suggest a capcost of 70/cycle (for mediums as an example) which will drag their effeciency down a little bit but make them more in line with their class.

The balance of the medium class of boosters is very close I think, so I've used that as my base line. These modules were all rebalanced during a previous initiative and while very good are not quite straight forward. I believe in creating meaningul choice for choosing one kind of item over another. Basically there is no reason to choose a DG medium booster over the C5-L meta booster because the only difference between them (fittings included) is 2hp/boost. That's it. 22k ISK for the C5-L or 30mil for the DG booster, for 2hp/boost.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#4 - 2015-08-31 04:39:26 UTC
Fair points. To be honest I haven't gone deep into the exact stats of individual boosters in a long time. Firstly, since DG and CN have identical stats (one again, off memory, correct me if I'm wrong). I consider the CN to just to not exist, it's a product of supply/demand and since there's an identical booster for much cheaper there's no point using it. As for the C5-L vs the DG, did you check the cycle times? (not at home so can't check right now). If I recall the DG boosters cycle faster.

As for Pith v Gist, I disagree, there's already a solid distinction between them (Gist for cap efficient but less boost, Pith for bigger burst tank with less cap efficiency). The main issue driving the choice right now is cost since the cost gap between Pith and Gist is massive, which isn't really a balance issue but rather an economics issue.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#5 - 2015-08-31 05:07:26 UTC
The cycle time on C5-L is 3s, DG booster is 2.4s, if you overheat the C5-L (0.8hp/cycle) you get it down to 2.55s/cycle which is pretty much the same, for t2 level boosts. Depending on the ship you use you could overheat them for quite a while too.

The difference in efficiency for pith and gist are as follows
Gist C: 3.62hp/gj
Gist B: 3.54
Gist A: 4.47
Pith C: 2.72
Pith B: 3.23
Pith A: 3.8

I'm not making a case for nerfing cap efficiency on dedspace gear to make them more even with each other, I'd like to propose a change to their efficiency while scaling the other tiericided modules to create a more solid case for each ones use.

Right now there isn't much of a reason to run the navy boosters because their efficiency is in the 1.5-1.8 range meaning you just cap out and at 30+mil per item they're overpriced.

Back in the day a gentleman questioned the rebalance initiative for not simply providing a more linear performance scale for all boosters and it was never responded to. By his proposal (without actually digging through the archives to find it) navy boosters should have an efficiency in the realms of 2.3/2.5.

I find the premise that they would be operated in a constant state of overheating to be farcical because if I was gonna go down that route (with say.. polarized rocket launchers or something) then I would just run the c5-L for cost effectiveness reasons and not lose overpriced shield boosters that are the relic of a design scheme long abandoned.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#6 - 2015-08-31 05:11:10 UTC
CN/DG boosters got gutted whenever they redid shield boosters. their hp/cap got zonked hard. it used to be standard practice to use a faction booster on most ships for the reduced fitting costs and nice stats, these days a meta4 boosts what 9hp less than a faction X-L? sure faction has the faster cycle time, but I don't think that counts for much, especially with how cheap deadspace pith boosters are given many people go with the XLASB. Oh yea and then pith saves a bunch of CPU over t2. I think RF/Domi shield boosters always kinda got shafted, don't remember anyone ever using them regularly.

as far as the gist boosters go, mostly pve cap efficiency/lazy mode boosters. can always go and use an undersize booster too to help out on cap. I've used Pithum boosters on pve BS, when the other main alternative fitting is on a frig/dessy. bunch of pithum c-type svipuls running around. And many use smalls on frigs/dessys/cruisers for pve.

ah well, should be interesting to see what they do to shield boosters with tiericide. hell I have my eye on a bunch of mods.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#7 - 2015-08-31 05:26:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Caleb Seremshur
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=264776
Here is the odyssey 1.1 thread that I could find via google searching but I'm pretty sure the shield booster rebalance was older than that. The actual rebalance that saw everyone going 'wat' at the stats.

edit:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3426788#post3426788

I think this is specifically the post where it all happened. Noone has actually posted stats on the matter yet and it's so long ago that I'm not going to look them up either.

Were they talking about reps for undersized reppers on battleships or something?

edit2

So it's page 6 that we see some actual figures get posted.
Fozzie went through and boosted all numbers by a % instead of being comprehensive and changing actual values to fit a newer, more balanced scale that was going in the same direction as the rest of the game. It was a laziness that has now led to this thread and some of the descrepencies we're seeing.

I'm sure I'll post another edit before I've read the whole thread.

edit3
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3489112#post3489112
Working backwards through the thread now for efficiency reasons. This guy here is the first one I've seen who now notices the trend I started this thread to ask about. Gotta keep digging.

edit4
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3465529#post3465529
Speak of the devil I had forgotten I posted that.
And next post down
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3465701#post3465701
Is probably the guy referenced above. You really gotta read this guys work.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#8 - 2015-08-31 06:06:36 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Fair points. To be honest I haven't gone deep into the exact stats of individual boosters in a long time. Firstly, since DG and CN have identical stats (one again, off memory, correct me if I'm wrong). I consider the CN to just to not exist, it's a product of supply/demand and since there's an identical booster for much cheaper there's no point using it.


Same reason my flagship sports DG Invulns instead of CN.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2015-08-31 06:50:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
The cycle time on C5-L is 3s, DG booster is 2.4s, if you overheat the C5-L (0.8hp/cycle) you get it down to 2.55s/cycle which is pretty much the same, for t2 level boosts. Depending on the ship you use you could overheat them for quite a while too.

The difference in efficiency for pith and gist are as follows
Gist C: 3.62hp/gj
Gist B: 3.54
Gist A: 4.47
Pith C: 2.72
Pith B: 3.23
Pith A: 3.8

I'm not making a case for nerfing cap efficiency on dedspace gear to make them more even with each other, I'd like to propose a change to their efficiency while scaling the other tiericided modules to create a more solid case for each ones use.

Right now there isn't much of a reason to run the navy boosters because their efficiency is in the 1.5-1.8 range meaning you just cap out and at 30+mil per item they're overpriced.

Back in the day a gentleman questioned the rebalance initiative for not simply providing a more linear performance scale for all boosters and it was never responded to. By his proposal (without actually digging through the archives to find it) navy boosters should have an efficiency in the realms of 2.3/2.5.

I find the premise that they would be operated in a constant state of overheating to be farcical because if I was gonna go down that route (with say.. polarized rocket launchers or something) then I would just run the c5-L for cost effectiveness reasons and not lose overpriced shield boosters that are the relic of a design scheme long abandoned.


From the way those numbers are sounding, they don't have any rhyme or reason to them at all, I thought the progression would be that the higher meta the repper the more efficient it would become.

This still leaves out armor a lot. I don't know how armor is supposed to compete when these modules even on the T1 and T2 side can blow out armor tanks for virtually free

ancil shield reppers beat ancil armor reppers hands down. the fact you can run more than 1 and the fact that they're CAPLESS is extremely overwhelming regardless of their fitting requirements. Most shield ships have plenty of CPU to run ancil reppers. Why is armor penalized with the cap usage and the garbage rep in comparison? Also the fact that shields can use navy cap boosters allows them to fit more, tanking more longer and better.

I know the "balance" of shield vs armor reppers was supposed to be that Armor reppers were more efficient per HP compared to shields but the difference is pretty astronomical. At this point I seem to stop caring about efficiency and I worry about my tank even holding or my repper even giving me a good amount of EHP over time. This also heavily reminds me of old ishtar fits that would always ignore armor because armor tanking was garbage, you could always do more damage and tank just as well with a shield ishtar as you could an armor one. You would then have the benefit of being faster, and higher agility, higher damage than the armor ishtar. I've seen ridiculous X-LASB or shield rep + cap booster fits that are absolutely amazing.

But getting back to shield repper balance. I agree, they should be all relatively the same, or at least the efficiency should get slightly better the higher the meta becomes. I also wish armor reppers had more bang in their bang-for-the-buck. I really wish I could run an armor fit and not feel out classed by an equivalent shield fit.

EDIT: also speaking of stupid numbers, can anyone explain how or what is the purpose of the Core- type armor repairers, If I'm not mistaken, they have the same efficiency as the centum reppers but for some reason heal a lot less HP and their fitting is the same aswell. I don't get this.