Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Where to begin...you lose your ship during combat...
The rules:
1) file a petition
2) CCP will investigate. if the investigation proves there was an error on the CCP side of the server you have a good chance of having your ship replaced.

what is created when a ship is lost?

1) a wreck
2) loot drop
3) salvage
4) insurance payout
5) bounty payouts (if any)
6) skill point loss (if in a strategic cruiser)
7) kill mail

upon reimbursement - replacement - return of ship

1) insurance payout is taken back.
2) ship is put in your hangar LESS the loot drop.
3) skill points are reimbursed.

you receive 3 emails: 1 from the gm informing you they have elected to reimburse, 2nd is from concord informing you "your ship has been salvaged", 3) the insurance company takes back your insurance payout.
CCP will NOT return items that were looted, bounties that were paid or erase/delete/remove the kill mail.

STOP!!!! lets examine the logic for a second.

insurance is paid when a ship is lost. that makes sense.
but, when CCP reimburses - replaces - returns the ship: the insurance payout is taken back.
if insurance is taken back that means: YOUR SHIP WAS NEVER DESTROYED. there's no need for a payout. that makes sense.

but that's where the logic ends on CCP's part. it's a partial solution to a 100% problem.

to get this to a 100% solution the following applies:

if your ship was never destroyed (remember you returned your insurance payout), then:
2) there couldn't have been a loot drop - items dropped need to be returned to the owner, taken from those who took the loot.
3) a wreck was never created - salvage needs to be returned by the salvager
4) bounty payouts never took place - therefore, payouts need to be taken back and restored to the pilot getting reimbursed
5) skill points reimbursed (if a strategic cruiser was lost)
6) lastly, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, the kill mail needs to be erased/deleted/removed because the ship was never lost.

another player would never believe me if i said "my ship was replaced by CCP". why? because reimbursement is rare.
if reimbursement is rare, then go 100% of the way. don't stop part way.

programming creates all the things involved in a ship loss.
programming can remove it when reimbursement occurs.
when a ship is reimbursed, then the attackers will know because the kill mail will be erased.

there have been many changes over the years
this needs to be changed too.

reimbursement = the event never happened.

if you agree, type SIGNED.

http://gifsoup.com/view/4570968/cartman-licks-tears.html

This is a relevant and informed response.

EDIT: Your saltyness makes the tears extra delicious
EDIT2: Inb4lock

Or just remove ship replacement under any circumstances. The simple solution is always the best solution.

Type NOFEAR if you agree.

Mr Epeen

do you honestly expect ccp to review every single ship kill manually? they're not going to do that.

pretty much, in addition if they gave you the mods that dropped as loot they would be potentially duping items

…and in that time, all the things that you want reversed will have changed hands and be propagated through a bajillion intermediaries that will now have their history erased. It's simply unfeasible, on top of being hugely exessive.

How far do you want this history revisionism to expand? Your loss meant someone scooped up your deadspace shield booster — should you get it back because “it never happened” (even though it did)? They sold it on the market for cheap just to get some quick ISK — should that trade be reversed because “he never had that booster” (even though he did)? The buyer used it to run a few dozen missions — should they be reversed because “he also never had that booster” and therefore couldn't run those missions (even though he also did)? He used the income and LP to create a bunch of faction ammo — should the ammo be deleted because “he never actually earned the stuff” (even though he did)? Some of the ammo was sold on the market — should the trade be reversed because “the ammo never existed” (even though it did)? You bought some of that ammo and used it to kill someone — should that kill be reversed because “you never had the ammo” (even though you did)? And that's just a single item from the kill that we're tracing; never mind what happened to the ISK that changed hands at every step of the way (or during the actual kill).

Short of a complete server roll-back, it almost instantly becomes to big to be done at all.


As Davis TetrisKing points out, your idea hinges on the notion that the reimbursed event never happened, even though it did. Since it did, all the follow-on effects also happened, and changing history would mean you have to change all of it or bad stuff will happen. It's not a good idea — hell, even Mr. Epeen's idea of just not allowing reimbursements to begin with is a better solution, and that's saying something — not only because of the absolutely insane effort required by the GMs, but also because it's a system begging for exploitation, fuckups, and value duping. All that for what? Because you're not happy with the compensation?

…but it did, and so did all the follow-on events, and the original ship is gone. A replacement that avoids duplication is the only option unless you go for a complete roll-back, which is ridiculously excessive for something as small and irrelevant as a ship loss.

The simple fact of the matter is “should” is irrelevant — it did happen. Trying to argue that it didn't leads to broken things.

There's no way of knowing this. All we know is that you lost, and punishing unrelated parties due to counterfactual reasoning is not a constructive (or sane or sensible) way to solve the issue.

yup, you got it.
pilot a never got the kill mail because pilot b dc'd (but it has to be CCP's fault). maybe pilot b gets away or destroys you in the absence of a disconnect, eh?
if pilot b dc'd because his side lost connection (his internet went out) then the km stands because it can't be verified on CCP's side of the server.

keep in mind: there are 2 sides to this game.
there is our side - CCP is NEVER responsible for what happens on our side of the game.
there's CCP's side - CCP is ALWAYS responsible for what happens on their servers.

i'm not saying tracing loot drops is easy. but it can be done.

I don't sign.

Reason? Because it is punishing a legitimate player potentially for something beyond their control and possibly even knowledge.

A long time ago, I lost a vulture I used for fleet command when I got hung up in a session change. The two minutes stuck in gate meant that enemy fleet caught up. They saw me, tackled me, blew up my ship and then looted it most likely. T2 battlecruiser, nice salvage.

Yeah, it adds stuff to the system, but in smaller than microscopic amounts. They could take it away from the players who looted me, but what is the point? That player is pissed cause they are on a high note for potentially getting sweet T2 salvage and a nice kill. Let em have it. I am happy I got my ship I lost to server error, they are happy for getting a sweet kill.

something similar happened to me out in null a long time ago.
feel bad for ya!

thing is this: you getting hung up in a session change put you at a real disadvantage and your opponents at a real advantage.
an advantage they capitalized upon.

when you filed, CCP saw there was a problem, they granted "reimbursement".

had the session change gone smoothly, you'd have gotten away. no loss mail, no reimbursement.
which is exactly the point i'm trying to make here.