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Question regarding Matari tattoos
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#41 - 2012-01-02 10:08:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkady Sadik
Let's use the term "slaver-supporter" ("slaver henchman"?) if that makes our nitpickers happy. :-)

"I never took slaves! I only supported and fought for those who do! Stop calling me slaver!" is a mightily high horse.

Edit to add: One should note, though, that it's perfectly fine and good for people to accept past mistakes and change. We shouldn't hold their past against them if they honestly try to change. At least the first time.
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#42 - 2012-01-02 11:49:08 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:

Yes, I tend to take a moderately aggressive tone when dealing with bigots, xenophobes, the self-deluded, hypocrites...


I'd suggest to have a more polite demeanor twhen dealing with your colleagues and superiors. They might not like that.

Anabella Rella wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:

Painting everyone who supports the Amarrian Empire to be a slaver is pretty hypocritical when you take the above tone.

Further hypocritical that you hate hypocrites. Their actions may inadvertently allow the continuation of enslavement to be the status quo, but that's like calling the Matari who fight in the TLF a bunch of bloodthirsty terrorists who wish for nothing more than ethnic cleansing. Second guessing people's motives makes assumptions, and you know what they say about assumptions..


Painting every member of the 24IC a Slaver is bigotist, you'd do well to remember that.



Aww Cael I thought we were buddies. Don't go all Farel on me now. The air up on that high horse of hers is way too thin to support too many people.


Yes, bad Mr. Marellus, promoting reason and a peaceful approach to the discussion at hand is so anti-republican. Be careful, a few more pacifistic outbursts like that, and one might suggest you're a "slaver-supporter" for not advocating genocide.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

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Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#43 - 2012-01-02 12:16:34 UTC
Leopold Caine wrote:
Be careful, a few more pacifistic outbursts like that, and one might suggest you're a "slaver-supporter" for not advocating genocide.
Pointing out that not everyone who wages war for the Empire is themselves a slaver is not "pacifist" and not being a slaver-supporter does not immediately mean you support genocide.

You could use some lessons from Caellach about this "reason" you seem to appreciate so much - you seem awfully short on that when throwing your peanuts.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#44 - 2012-01-02 15:09:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Let's use the term "slaver-supporter" ("slaver henchman"?) if that makes our nitpickers happy. :-)

"I never took slaves! I only supported and fought for those who do! Stop calling me slaver!" is a mightily high horse.

Edit to add: One should note, though, that it's perfectly fine and good for people to accept past mistakes and change. We shouldn't hold their past against them if they honestly try to change. At least the first time.


What you do not seem to understand is that I have not changed the slightest. People are not defined by the people for who they work, but by the work they themselves do, especially when they use it to balance actions of the former.

Your logic is flawed, again.

Edit : I am sure people would have claimed that I was a minmatar terrorist if I worked for the Republic instead. Not even able to make a difference between terrorists and mere citizens, or between slavers and mere imperial citizens, is quite a prejudice. Go on, and put everyone in the same bag when it suits you, nothing new after all.


Anabella Rella wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:

Painting everyone who supports the Amarrian Empire to be a slaver is pretty hypocritical when you take the above tone.

Further hypocritical that you hate hypocrites. Their actions may inadvertently allow the continuation of enslavement to be the status quo, but that's like calling the Matari who fight in the TLF a bunch of bloodthirsty terrorists who wish for nothing more than ethnic cleansing. Second guessing people's motives makes assumptions, and you know what they say about assumptions..


Painting every member of the 24IC a Slaver is bigotist, you'd do well to remember that.




Aww Cael I thought we were buddies. Don't go all Farel on me now. The air up on that high horse of hers is way too thin to support too many people.


Why ? You prefer to crawl in the mud below, instead ?
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#45 - 2012-01-02 15:47:32 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:

Painting everyone who supports the Amarrian Empire to be a slaver is pretty hypocritical when you take the above tone.

Further hypocritical that you hate hypocrites. Their actions may inadvertently allow the continuation of enslavement to be the status quo, but that's like calling the Matari who fight in the TLF a bunch of bloodthirsty terrorists who wish for nothing more than ethnic cleansing. Second guessing people's motives makes assumptions, and you know what they say about assumptions..


Painting every member of the 24IC a Slaver is bigotist, you'd do well to remember that.




Aww Cael I thought we were buddies. Don't go all Farel on me now. The air up on that high horse of hers is way too thin to support too many people.


I'm not taking anyone's side on this, I prefer the neutral point of view. As it is you can't have it all one way, if by logic we assume all the 24th IC are supporters/henchmen/BFF's/bootlickers of Slavers and Slavery, then the members and supporters of the TLF are all genocidal maniacs.


It's better to not whitewash everyone, even if it helps some people sleep better at night by doing so.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#46 - 2012-01-02 15:49:49 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
What you do not seem to understand is that I have not changed the slightest.
You stopped working directly for and supporting those who wish to subjugate my people. Whether you accept that that is a change is irrelevant to me - you changed that which made you an enemy of mine, and are now a neutral. I think this is more in line with who you want to be, too, so I think this non-change was quite good for you, too.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#47 - 2012-01-02 18:46:30 UTC
I wish people would stop trying to ascribe to me all these ulterior motives. Ok, so I fall into a bit of linguistic laziness when I call Farel and her ilk "slavers" when in fact they are (or were in Farel's case) supporters of the Amarrian system. Sue me. Someone who drives the getaway vehicle at a robbery in which someone is killed may not be as culpable morally as the one who actually squeezed the trigger but, in the eyes of the law the getaway driver is equally culpable and is also charged with murder. I view Amarrian supporters in the same light and see no logical contradiction.

I also find it humorous to be lectured about tolerance and reason particularly by the likes of Leopold Caine who regularly trolls, throws sarcastic (and unfunny) barbs, makes snarky comments, etc. I suggest you all take a dose of your own medicine and concern yourselves more with your own conduct and less with mine.

How about instead of attempting to take me to task you do something useful like, hell I don't know, maybe rescue some people abandoned in space like Sister Louella's group, fight with the militia, work with the progressives to change the imperial system from within or donate some isk to a group that cares for the newly freed, like the Disciples of Ston?

By the way, I know of many Amarrians of goodwill who do much good for the Minmatar behind the scenes. I won't publicize their efforts due to concerns for their personal safety. I'm well aware of the difference between those who hold slaves or actively work to propagate that system and the average Amarrian who does neither. I certainly won't have my integrity or knowledge questioned by the likes of strangers on the IGS. As far as I'm concerned you moralizers can all go straight to hell.

Oh, and I sleep quite well at night with my logic and choices. Also it seems that my colleagues and superiors in Gradient and EM are happy with me as well since I'll soon be starting my fourth year with same.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#48 - 2012-01-02 23:51:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
What you do not seem to understand is that I have not changed the slightest.
You stopped working directly for and supporting those who wish to subjugate my people. Whether you accept that that is a change is irrelevant to me - you changed that which made you an enemy of mine, and are now a neutral. I think this is more in line with who you want to be, too, so I think this non-change was quite good for you, too.


Wholeheartdedly agreed.

I think I misunderstood what you said and took it as change as a person instead as change of status for you.

Anabella Rella wrote:
I wish people would stop trying to ascribe to me all these ulterior motives. Ok, so I fall into a bit of linguistic laziness when I call Farel and her ilk "slavers" when in fact they are (or were in Farel's case) supporters of the Amarrian system. Sue me. Someone who drives the getaway vehicle at a robbery in which someone is killed may not be as culpable morally as the one who actually squeezed the trigger but, in the eyes of the law the getaway driver is equally culpable and is also charged with murder. I view Amarrian supporters in the same light and see no logical contradiction.


First, supporter of the Amarrian system may be a bit strong. I was born in an Imperial milieu, as much as you were born in a Matari family. Even if you try to evade your own origins, your birth eventually ends up to catch up with you, and ultimately defines who you are. It is then up to you to choose how you want to cope with that fact.

Secondly, it is quite a vague term. Have I been a supporter of the first principle of the Scriptures and what they stand for ? Sure. Have I been a quiet and dedicated supporter of CVA actions ? Definitly. Of CVA's religious doctrines ? Not sure. Have I ever been a supporter of the TC interpretation and official statements ? I highly doubt so, and all my posts here on the IGS, and even my records back to my childhood - if you manage somehow to find some - will not tell you otherwise. It is also easy to forget that even if it ended not very well for me, in your own words, I have been equally a "supporter" of the Federation for a year, mostly around Solitude and Aridia. Does that mean that I agree with everything ? There is huge gap between a blind supporter/fanatic and a moderate supporter.

Thirdly, I think that your analogy is flawed : unless the driver of your criminal robbery's party has other motives to be part of this (a necessity that pushes him to do something he despises), his only motive is to make illegal money. There are very few things that are worth defending in the principle of robbery. Unfortunately for most propaganda machines, this is not the case with the Amarr Empire, which does not only equates with slavery.

Anabella Rella wrote:
How about instead of attempting to take me to task you do something useful like, hell I don't know, maybe rescue some people abandoned in space like Sister Louella's group, fight with the militia, work with the progressives to change the imperial system from within or donate some isk to a group that cares for the newly freed, like the Disciples of Ston?


Now, I am confused, what do you think I have been doing all these years ? Changing mindsets, freeing slaves... Why do you think I have been branded heretic by officials (at least, partly due to that, that was just the official excuse for territorial claims).
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#49 - 2012-01-03 16:39:57 UTC
For the first time in my life I've bothered to learn anything about the tattoos, the Voluval or anything else of my people. It's simply overwhelming how much I've been insulated from, and then later ignored completely despite all the evidence surrounding me. I wasn't born a slave or Ammatar, it's just the community I was raised in specifically rejected both Amarr religion and Minmatar traditions.

I've really missed out on something wonderful and now I'm dedicated to the pursuit of reclaiming my heritage. Ava will be helping me, she's done so much for me in these few weeks and I owe everything to her.
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