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Proposed change to Wardecs..
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Shaddam Daphiti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2015-08-29 18:28:29 UTC
Let's face it, Wardeccing is broken.

Instead of being a mechanic that encourages players to interact it drives new players away.
Why? because it is abused, terribly.

Rich Corps will wardec a new corp into oblivion for no reason other than they can. This is causing CCP to hemorrhage subscriptions.

Therefore I suggest the following minor change:

A Corporation may warddec if and only if one of it's members has a live Killright on a member of the other Corp in question.

if wardecs are tied to killrights then an act of overt agression HAS to proceed a wardec.

This is both in keeping with the feel of EvE Onlines universe s and prevents intentional harassment of smaller Corporations.

I welcome additional thoughts and input.
Valeria Aelahl
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2 - 2015-08-29 18:35:59 UTC
I welcome this, something needs to give. Ive been on both sides of the coin and its obvious to anyone involved, that the mechanic is a little broken.

"We are the Amarr, your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Lower your shields and surrender your vessel. Resistance is futile."
Plivia Epollinus
Doomheim
#3 - 2015-08-29 18:40:29 UTC
Newer corps and players get punished by the current mechanic. This is a good idea. I hope CCP considers this or something that alleviates this problem.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#4 - 2015-08-29 18:42:16 UTC
War decs are not the thing causing EVE to hemorhage subscriptions. Limiting it to only being able to declare when you have an active killright completely nullifies the purpose of the war dec system and is not really an option.

If I were to do anything with war decs it'd be to limit the amount that you can have at any one time, or to make a renew limit/cooldown so that they can't be maintained indefinitiely (unless it's a mutual war).
Slaver Filth
Council of Apostles
#5 - 2015-08-29 18:48:04 UTC
Changes to war decs is a good idea.

Tying it to kill rights not as good. How about tying it to a kill mail.

People can destroy your property ( mobile depots, deployable assets ) earn a kill mail and fly away scot free. The depot owner gets no kill right and under your new rule could not war dec. If you are going to make a change any action that grants a kill mail should come at the risk of allowing a war dec.

"Child of Amarr seek not warmth in our cold hearts, we are the old serpent of New Eden and you must do your part, revel in our viciousness, we rule by venom and our strike is merciless, "
Tony-Vagabond Carter
Chrysos Aigis
#6 - 2015-08-29 18:48:31 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Limiting it to only being able to declare when you have an active killright completely nullifies the purpose of the war dec system and is not really an option.



I respectfully disagree. Wardecs allow hostilities in highsec without CONCORD intervention, that is their primary function. Connecting them to Killrights would mean there must be a 'first shot'.. perfectly reasonable IMHO,


If I refuse to sell you a pie, for the sake of my beliefs or yours.. who really loses out here? Me. I will have lost a sale and possibly future sales, and you will just go to another pie-maker!
Tony-Vagabond Carter
Chrysos Aigis
#7 - 2015-08-29 18:53:20 UTC
Slaver Filth wrote:
Changes to war decs is a good idea.

Tying it to kill rights not as good. How about tying it to a kill mail.

People can destroy your property ( mobile depots, deployable assets ) earn a kill mail and fly away scot free. The depot owner gets no kill right and under your new rule could not war dec. If you are going to make a change any action that grants a kill mail should come at the risk of allowing a war dec.



The only problem here I see is a logistical one, Killrights are percharacter, whereas killmails are just 'loose' records..

If I refuse to sell you a pie, for the sake of my beliefs or yours.. who really loses out here? Me. I will have lost a sale and possibly future sales, and you will just go to another pie-maker!
Slaver Filth
Council of Apostles
#8 - 2015-08-29 19:06:23 UTC
Question.

Currently if I want to expel another corp from a system in high sec space without Concord intervention I can war dec them. If they can not successfully defend they would leave the area I wish to control. Then I can put up POCOs. Would your changes disallow this from happening and leave me at the mercy of their high rates for my PI activities?

Corps can surrender when someone declares war and stop the loss of assets under the current rules, that being the case I do not see the connection between war decs and subscriptions being dropped. The war dec corp does not get a refund of the fee paid to file the war dec after the surrender even if they have prepaid for longer than one week.

"Child of Amarr seek not warmth in our cold hearts, we are the old serpent of New Eden and you must do your part, revel in our viciousness, we rule by venom and our strike is merciless, "
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#9 - 2015-08-29 19:09:16 UTC
Tony-Vagabond Carter wrote:
I respectfully disagree. Wardecs allow hostilities in highsec without CONCORD intervention, that is their primary function. Connecting them to Killrights would mean there must be a 'first shot'.. perfectly reasonable IMHO,


Tying it to killrights makes war decs only defensive. There is a place in the game for offensive war decs and we shouldn't be trying to prevent that.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#10 - 2015-08-29 19:10:54 UTC
Horrible idea. wardecs are being used, just because you dont like how isnt a game problem its YOUR problem.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Trenmir Bedala
Bedala Salvage
#11 - 2015-08-29 19:29:57 UTC
I like this Idea.

To those who say that it eliminated "offensive Wars" I call shenanigans.

You want to start a war offensively? have the chromosomal fortitude to fire the first shots and yes, risk being Concorded for it!
You want to get rid of another Corps POCO's and POS in Highsec.. do the same thing!

Going to make this my new signature ...

Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

I have nothing useful to say, so instead I'll insult the OP.
Avvy
Doomheim
#12 - 2015-08-29 19:43:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Shaddam Daphiti wrote:
Let's face it, Wardeccing is broken.

Instead of being a mechanic that encourages players to interact it drives new players away.
Why? because it is abused, terribly.

Rich Corps will wardec a new corp into oblivion for no reason other than they can. This is causing CCP to hemorrhage subscriptions.

Therefore I suggest the following minor change:

A Corporation may warddec if and only if one of it's members has a live Killright on a member of the other Corp in question.

if wardecs are tied to killrights then an act of overt agression HAS to proceed a wardec.

This is both in keeping with the feel of EvE Onlines universe s and prevents intentional harassment of smaller Corporations.

I welcome additional thoughts and input.



So a player in an NPC corp has a kill right and can't wardec, that doesn't work.

How would mercenary corps operate? After all they work for someone else.

Maybe for mercenary corps, just sell them the kill rights. Ok that sorts out the kill rights for mercenaries but what's to stop other corps from buying or obtaining kill rights to sell in the same manner. All you will do is make players work around it.
Tony-Vagabond Carter
Chrysos Aigis
#13 - 2015-08-29 19:51:18 UTC
Avvy wrote:



So a player in an NPC corp has a kill right and can't wardec, that doesn't work.

How would mercenary corps operate? After all they work for someone else.

Maybe for mercenary corps, just sell them the kill rights. Ok that sorts out the kill rights for mercenaries but what's to stop other corps from buying or obtaining kill rights to sell in the same manner. All you will do is make players work around it.


This may be the most valid point so far, save that NPC corps never could wardec, or be wardecced. That fact makes that moot, as for Merc corps.. well

If you carry a flag (and your corp tag is essentially a flag) be prepared to be treated as if you represent that flag.

I do see the point about Sold Killrights, perhaps the wardeccing rights should be limited to Original killright earners...

If I refuse to sell you a pie, for the sake of my beliefs or yours.. who really loses out here? Me. I will have lost a sale and possibly future sales, and you will just go to another pie-maker!
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#14 - 2015-08-29 20:12:27 UTC
Trenmir Bedala wrote:
You want to start a war offensively? have the chromosomal fortitude to fire the first shots and yes, risk being Concorded for it!
You want to get rid of another Corps POCO's and POS in Highsec.. do the same thing!


Or you can just declare a war, as you do now. If the player does not like getting war decced, then they can stay in an NPC corp, or not put up poco's and POSes, or live somewhere away from where major war dec corps operate.

High sec is not supposed to be 100% safe. Offensive war decs are part of EVE.
Avvy
Doomheim
#15 - 2015-08-29 20:18:31 UTC
Tony-Vagabond Carter wrote:
Avvy wrote:



So a player in an NPC corp has a kill right and can't wardec, that doesn't work.

How would mercenary corps operate? After all they work for someone else.

Maybe for mercenary corps, just sell them the kill rights. Ok that sorts out the kill rights for mercenaries but what's to stop other corps from buying or obtaining kill rights to sell in the same manner. All you will do is make players work around it.


This may be the most valid point so far, save that NPC corps never could wardec, or be wardecced. That fact makes that moot, as for Merc corps.. well

If you carry a flag (and your corp tag is essentially a flag) be prepared to be treated as if you represent that flag.

I do see the point about Sold Killrights, perhaps the wardeccing rights should be limited to Original killright earners...



Yeah, I wasn't being serious about the NPC corps, I should really have left that bit out.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#16 - 2015-08-29 21:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Shaddam Daphiti wrote:

Instead of being a mechanic that encourages players to interact it drives new players away.


That is a lie.

Furthermore, with such a heavy handed nerf, why don't you just ask for the mechanic to be deleted? Because that's functionally what it would do.

If you do not want to deal with wars, you belong in a NPC corp, you do not deserve a player corp.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#17 - 2015-08-29 21:52:56 UTC
Yes, we're all genuinely shocked that CODE might object to any changes to high-sec WarDecs... Roll

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#18 - 2015-08-29 22:18:58 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Yes, we're all genuinely shocked that CODE might object to any changes to high-sec WarDecs... Roll


I do that personally, and I have since long before I joined CODE, thanks.

Wardecs already are hugely in favor of the defender based on the mechanics. Dec dodging, being almost free in terms of isk and completely free of consequence, means that absolutely no one is "forced" to be in a war. They are 100% consensual. Meanwhile the defender has access to the ally mechanic, allowing them to dogpile an attacker for literally free.

The mechanics favor the defender hugely.

Wars do not need to be nerfed any further, especially since CCP has themselves shown us that highsec conflict is a large positive factor in player retention. If anything, they need buffed, and conflict should be proliferated across highsec.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Madd Adda
#19 - 2015-08-30 01:21:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Madd Adda
the issue is that this would pretty much immunizes corps that don't attack other players, like single/multiboxer corps.

How about giving all corporations a status rating? This rating wouldn't be like sec status/faction standing where you'll be shot at by NPCs, but a status related purely to the war dec mechanic.

Members of a player corp who commit criminal activity regularly cause the over all status of the corp to decline, and in turn, reduces the cost to war dec them -50% (at lowest rating). So after doing the calculations for 2000 member alliance with the worst rating possible, it would cost 250mil to dec them rather than the normal 500mil

On the other hand, corps that help counter pirates and criminals have a higher status. This increases the amount of isk needed to dec those corps by a max of +25% at the highest rating. So for a 2000 member alliance it would cost 625 mil compared to the normal 500mil

I'm on the fence about ratting/missioning/incursions affecting the status just because the risk of abuse.

Carebear extraordinaire
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#20 - 2015-08-30 04:26:56 UTC
If you do not like war declarations, stay in an NPC corporation. Or move to another part of space. I never worry about war declarations out in Fountain, Delve, or Vale of the Silent.

If you really want to care bear in relative peace and have a mostly boring and unexciting game, there is always a place like Tenal...

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

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