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Weapon Tiericide V2: Duals, mediums, and DPS?

Author
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-08-28 20:02:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
What weapon do we never see? the Dual___ Well, we do, but very rarely. Will use a fun example of mine and that is amarrian battleship lasers.

Those Dual heavy beams. What a lightshow. But the damage and range sucks compared to the other beams, and the tracking is horrible vs a cruiser without much more damage. For shame.

Tachyons. if it can fit them, FIT THEM! Enough blob or whatever and stacked interdiction means will hit everything. go hog wild.

mega beams. Well... not everything can fit tachyons...


It is a common theme I have noticed over the years for all the factions, all the ships and the short/long range weapons. So will be presenting concepts. Crunching the numbers take time, but I am pondering your guys feedback. This is inspired by commentaries by people on the faction system and think this will help in promoting more diverse fleets, less rock paper scissors and more counter to the "trollceptors" Since these are only numbers changes and not new equipment or features, it should be joyously implementable.

First, I will refer to them as levels 1,2,3 for their damage. 1 being duals. For the weapon classes that have only the two, consider them an intermediate between 1-2,2-3

Level 1:

I feel need a bit of a fitting increase. Using these, I have rarely filled my fitting except on some unique fit command ships just on the CPU side. This will balance out the other changes. Capacitor usage (when applicable) have a rate increase as well. Increase signature resolutions.

Have tracking speed boosted to be more in line with the size smaller counterparts they are related to. This is why the increased fitting and capacitor. The ability to project damage will be far greater and as such, will need some fitting change to counterpart.

Level 2:

These are a bread and butter. Decently effective at what they do. I cannot really fathom a reason for any changes at this time.

Level 3:

The big guns. Tough to fit, but I think the fitting and energy requirements are okay. But the tracking and signature resolution dropped.

Bonus however would be a bit more damage, and a substantial range increase. So yeah, cannot hit anything within 100km, but you don't need to be... (exaderated)


Purpose for these proposals? It makes weapon selection more tactical than just pure DPS application. Essentially, the Level 1 is more for taking a size under you out, a Level 2 will be your same hull size, and level 3 will be a size hull up. This is very general, but you can see where I am going with it.

In my view, this would increase fleet diversity. It allows a person to better make anti drone/anti frigate ships. In a dual, a high dps frigate now might not beat the more precise one, but they can better apply their damage to larger targets. Yes, it is a bit rock paper scissors, but will need to bring all three. If you only have the one weapon type (say mega beam abaddons), well, you might suddenly be having trouble if a bunch of heavy omens get on you or something. But if you have a few with the duals, take out omens, etc.... But those ones will be taken out by battleships, so need the small ones to kite said omens, then will need... I quite probably am overthinking it, but...

Essentially, those powerhouse sniper fleets are even more powerhouse, but if anything gets inside range, you are in trouble. Would need to break up beyond logi range just to hit anything if some cruisers get in on ya.

From a fleet command, it does make things more intense, will have to know your targets a bit and rely on other commanders. It offers a bit more alternatives to fitting, roll and usage. Almost like having an AA tank, but same chassis with artillery mounted would be no contest.

Bit of rambling, but onto part two. Missiles

We already know that the big drawback to missiles is the duration to impact. I would like to propose a change for T1 and T2 missiles.

We kinda have the size class in medium turrets, the rapid fire light and the heavy launcher.... but that isn't much. My proposal is that the T2 missiles actually become T1 missiles and follow the similar profile to the weapons above.

This will be balanced along side the other weapons in that instead of a different turret, you now change ammo for the different "levels" Having the different damage types is no different than projectiles or how the others can select range and capacitor drain. So in essence, four damage types, with three different missile variants. A high speed missile much like an A-A which doesn't do high damage, but applies it well. Our current T1 missiles, then the big ol Bunker buster. If it is moving, not gonna hit to do damage.

The T2 missiles can become utility missiles. So possibilities are anything ewar. Warp scram (so cruise disruptor for MWD) ecm missiles, not sure, but you name it, but no damage. This is to allow something that makes having the delayed damage protection not such a negative. Since missile are able to be kited, it means for example a warp scram drake... well, it isn't going to be able to land a short range scram missile on that intie. These would be shorter cycle penalties. If you have missiles grouped, it would have a total. (so a 2 second ECM with eight launchers is a 16 second ecm) Spread or focus, your call.

Result? I see diverse battles and more tactics. Missiles? I dunno about you but if a gunship is limited to a role, missiles at least can trade rolls with ammo in exchange for the delay on damage protection, kiting, etc.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#2 - 2015-08-28 21:27:20 UTC
If anything tachyons and 1400s need to be EASIER to fit...

I mean if the Abaddon pride of the amarrian navy cannot fit a full rack of tach's something is wrong somewhere surely... (the only one who can do it is the oracle...) and it is the ONLY BATTLESHIP that can fit a full rack of 1400s without exploding, becuase yet again the Maelstrom pinacle of minmatarrian engineering cannot be ****** showing up with their preferred weapon system being fit on anything that isnt a tornado...

We have enough people now in most fleets that brutal alpha isnt a deciding factor anymore, 500 dudes with medium railguns kill **** just as dead as the 100 guys with 1400s and will kill alot more things alot more quickly... 14 seconds between shots that cannot hit a moving titan reliably are BLOODY POINTLESS, (same with tachs btw...)
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2015-08-28 22:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
FireFrenzy wrote:
If anything tachyons and 1400s need to be EASIER to fit...

I mean if the Abaddon pride of the amarrian navy cannot fit a full rack of tach's something is wrong somewhere surely... (the only one who can do it is the oracle...) and it is the ONLY BATTLESHIP that can fit a full rack of 1400s without exploding, becuase yet again the Maelstrom pinacle of minmatarrian engineering cannot be ****** showing up with their preferred weapon system being fit on anything that isnt a tornado...

We have enough people now in most fleets that brutal alpha isnt a deciding factor anymore, 500 dudes with medium railguns kill **** just as dead as the 100 guys with 1400s and will kill alot more things alot more quickly... 14 seconds between shots that cannot hit a moving titan reliably are BLOODY POINTLESS, (same with tachs btw...)


I don't see why not. Depending on how "powerful" we want tracking, damage and range to be. Considering ammunition, if we increase range, but maintain the damage and reduce tracking, the applied damage would be same as if we upped the damage and used longer range ammunition to result in same optimal. The range boost more with fitting drop will transfer that power to get damage from the PG to the ammunition. Worse tracking means that you might not want to be close.

Your second point is what I was looking at as well when it comes to weaponry. A large howitzer isn't used to fire at things on the other side of a wall. It also is a good example of what I was refering to as a tactical weapon. If you have that fleet of 1400 artilleries, you do not want to be using them up close. You will want to be at plus 50km ranges to hit capitals and titans since the 1400 is now an anti-capital weapon. DN weapons need scaling to match. It is also what I was getting at about needing a more diverse fleet. If you show up in a meta 1200 artie gang, you are good against battleship shooting at moving battleships at say the same, 40km range... If the other fleet brings in some ruptures for example with their large autocannons, you are going to be in trouble.

It needs to be looked at in even numbers though. Yes, 500 can kill as fast 100 med to large, but if you have 100 large weps, and 100 meds, etc. Overall damage is better. That fleet of 500 mediums now vs a more mixed fleet, those 500 might be entirely shredded by 100 anti cruiser ships while those 100 large ships deal the main damage. Idea is the other weapons allow you to escort a higher damage. The high damage weapons increased to offset the loss of dps from now defensive fit ships.

But if you have a few of the small battleship autocannons on your ship, suddenly you have a counter to their ruptures. Close and long range weaponry will stay as normal where close range is more damage at expense of... range.

If I get time, maybe will fiddle around with it, but the idea is essentially you have your main force, but you will want to bring other craft to support. If the other fleet is one centered around only countering your main, you can take out their hole.


Overall, I thought of it approaching the blob fleet in another order and was inspired by the talk of trollceptors (did I say that earlier?) I approached it from king of the hill. Titans, what can get at them without nothing being able to stop it. How to defend against that, etc and worked my way down til I got to just the little drones. At each level, I decided that there needs to be a defence against that, but it makes it vulnerable to the next size up.

Then you have the middle where it is okay against both, but at same time, harder to plug vulnerabilities. This makes the midsize of category ideal for newer and more casual gameplay or small numbers. If I get time, maybe I do a pretty picture in paint or something....

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#4 - 2015-08-29 06:01:15 UTC
Question?

Why is it the dual/quad guns use the ammo for their hard point size, and not the guns barrel size.
Dual 150s use medium ammo, but the 150 is a small rail.

I say fix the ammo usages first - than work on fine tweaks.

Dual/Quads should sort of be like the Rapid light/heavies when it comes to missiles.
The provide smaller weapon fits in bigger ships.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5 - 2015-08-29 06:14:16 UTC
Amarisen Gream wrote:
Dual/Quads should sort of be like the Rapid light/heavies when it comes to missiles.
The provide smaller weapon fits in bigger ships.

I've been thinking this myself lately. Sacrifice overall dps to be able to fit smaller, faster targets, just like the rapid launchers. It'd give the smaller class guns something to make them useful.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#6 - 2015-08-29 06:17:42 UTC
Galphii wrote:
Amarisen Gream wrote:
Dual/Quads should sort of be like the Rapid light/heavies when it comes to missiles.
The provide smaller weapon fits in bigger ships.

I've been thinking this myself lately. Sacrifice overall dps to be able to fit smaller, faster targets, just like the rapid launchers. It'd give the smaller class guns something to make them useful.



People keep asking for anti-frigate guns for like BS and such, this would do it.

They could even develop a line of duals/quads/octs for Capital ships.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#7 - 2015-08-29 06:28:31 UTC
Quads etc would be taking it too far. However can we say... often asked for duplicate topic?
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2015-08-29 06:59:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
OP is sort of tl;dr and comparing to the other relared threads. What is the problem with duals/quads? The do less dps vs senior versions due to same sig tracking thing.But they have some advantages, such as low fitting requirement and better tracking ability.
Having 250mm large rails you can't effectivelly hit anithing with sig less than 400m. Only if you are using some extra mods to somehow improve the gap but the trade off is utility slots. So as was suggested - new variants of ammo. Or new variants of scripts to the existing SB and TC.

And i still use my harbi with quads.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#9 - 2015-08-29 07:24:40 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
OP is sort of tl;dr and comparing to the other relared threads. What is the problem with duals/quads? The do less dps vs senior versions due to same sig tracking thing.But they have some advantages, such as low fitting requirement and better tracking ability.
Having 250mm large rails you can't effectivelly hit anithing with sig less than 400m. Only if you are using some extra mods to somehow improve the gap but the trade off is utility slots. So as was suggested - new variants of ammo. Or new variants of scripts to the existing SB and TC.

And i still use my harbi with quads.




The issue is Big bore is best is too prevalent to most. People like that eft damage number. They don't go the graphs or run these to see sometimes good things can come in smaller packages.

Also seems to be basing on lasers. Not much trigger time with them so may write that off as maybe ccp should tweak lasers maybe. I know from minmatar side good things come from smaller bore....but well my times in the past winmatar has been one word for that race lol. Mentioned in another thread I willfully ran 125 II's vice the FOTM 200's to get back some tracking from gun selection alone. Mix and match with tracking mods on hull.....I like the results target depending. Small hits better on the broad side of a barn are better than missing the thing entirely can add up to better applied damage. Applied damage (ie. damage that actually hits) tends to be better.

To draw an analogy....you can be that gym rat who benchpresses 400 lbs. If you can't connect a punch worth a damn....don't mean much though in a fight. Sure they hurt more when they hit potentially. Keyword....when.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-08-29 07:28:05 UTC
First, sorry it is a repeat topic. Been out of this section for quite a while. I just reviewed back several pages only and saw one that just said about making the small variants rapid versions.

The ammo bit has been on my brain since I first fit dual 150s to a cruiser as newb and tried loading with small ammo. While a valid point, I did not bring it up as it is potentially more changing. If that did come into effect, I would suggest it be half damage and cap usage, double rof and use the size down ammo.

This however is a less global effect. As such, I tried approaching it as something universal in a way to revamp combat.

To answer Tiddles question about what is wrong with duals? Not much really. I have multiple ships with them and they have their place. What I was more going for is if we could change them more to just give a wider range of function to a hull. Defender, attacker, siege.

So the harbi with quads. Essentially it would require a bit more fitting, but tradeoff is they are very precise.

250mm rails would become more sniper focus. A pilot would be able to sit at a range to kite and wail on a large hull. Yes, they can do that now but damage and tracking changes mean it is harder to fly under the guns and still hit.

The duals is really what got me thinking all the same. I found while they had advantages, they are just too offset. Rails for example. For fun, I originally fit my rokh with the d150s and rapid fire rig, etc. Great fun, but (in pve) it was,still easy to get under the gun without burning a ton of utility. The loss of damage SEEMed to not be outweighed by its advantages. It has become more forefront with all the talk on trollceptors and the annoying frig swatting.

By giving weapons more variation, it makes certain,anti ____ hulls more applicable. Less effective againt one, but more effective on another hull. Plus goes both ways. An anti cruiser battleship vs an anti battleship cruiser. It would be very tactical. Cruiser cannot get in real close, giving battleahip more of a chance to hit. But battleship would not be high damage on other BS. That battleship however has anti cruiser frigs, suddenly the cruiser is defenceless. In current weapons, fleet spread in an ol style large fight means if you are smaller, you lose.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2015-08-29 07:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Zan Shiro wrote:


The issue is Big bore is best is too prevalent to most. People like that eft damage number. They don't go the graphs or run these to see sometimes good things can come in smaller packages.

Also seems to be basing on lasers. Not much trigger time with them so may write that off as maybe ccp should tweak lasers maybe. I know from minmatar side good things come from smaller bore....but well my times in the past winmatar has been one word for that race lol. Mentioned in another thread I willfully ran 125 II's vice the FOTM 200's to get back some tracking from gun selection alone. Mix and match with tracking mods on hull.....I like the results target depending. Small hits better on the broad side of a barn are better than missing the thing entirely can add up to better applied damage. Applied damage (ie. damage that actually hits) tends to be better.

To draw an analogy....you can be that gym rat who benchpresses 400 lbs. If you can't connect a punch worth a damn....don't mean much though in a fight. Sure they hurt more when they hit potentially. Keyword....when.


That is what my point is exaxtly. Made eve much more focused on applied damage. I have experience with most weapons, but it is more the large variants that got to me. Seemed too easy to apply damage with em. Take all above, combime it with a tracking fit and now you are low dps, but hard set for anti frig. Anything that isnt in your face will be hit. However, you are also more easily out damaged and an easier target. A potentially necessary ship if attacked by a frig swarm. Said fig swarm could be loaded for damage and range.... Suddenly that can level the field. They bring one damage battleship and the antifrig is toast.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.