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Battleship disappointments, Need a Substitute.
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Jonas Kanjus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#21 - 2015-08-23 21:21:32 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
my main problem with cruisers in level 4s is that for the most part they can just zoom around and be near immune to damage. My tengu fit used a deadspace small shield booster which was turn it on and forget about it. Also since they don't do a lot of damage it takes what feels like forever to chew through NPC battleships.


Are you flying a HAM tengu? With good skills, you should see 800 to 900DPS with 40+ KM range using rage ham's. Drops to 589 DPS using javelin ham's with 77+ KM range.

[Tengu, HAM]
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Missile Guidance Enhancer II

Dread Guristas Medium Shield Booster
Dread Guristas EM Ward Field
Dread Guristas EM Ward Field
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Missile Guidance Computer II
10MN Afterburner II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer II

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst


My start date to EVE Online: 6/25/2005 8:24:57 AM UTC
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#22 - 2015-08-23 21:50:38 UTC
Raven? Get your propulsion skills up, make sure you have weapons and drone range, fit mjd (even mjd + AB if you want) and skip looting. Also the option to fit an astronautic rig. It's all trade offs, otherwise it'd be OP. If you want unbreakable shields with DPS then you lose mobility etc. If you lack BS skill then you just fly what you can until then.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#23 - 2015-08-24 03:15:35 UTC
Jonas Kanjus wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
my main problem with cruisers in level 4s is that for the most part they can just zoom around and be near immune to damage. My tengu fit used a deadspace small shield booster which was turn it on and forget about it. Also since they don't do a lot of damage it takes what feels like forever to chew through NPC battleships.


Are you flying a HAM tengu? With good skills, you should see 800 to 900DPS with 40+ KM range using rage ham's. Drops to 589 DPS using javelin ham's with 77+ KM range.


the ham tengu used to do at least 1k dps *looks in eft, yep still does* but it was so annoying to fly that I pretty much never used it. sub 2s volley means either paying a lot of attention or wasting a lot of volleys.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#24 - 2015-08-24 05:51:09 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
shouldn't even bother looting missions anymore, salvage and loot has taken a huge nerf and you're better off just farming lp

That being said, level 4 missions really don't present much challenge anyway. If you want to move up to the next level of PVE, start getting into wormholes


I was in the process of making this transition, then all of sudden I started getting tons of back to back burner missions, then blockades galore. Next thing I knew I was back to grinding lev 4's again...sigh.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#25 - 2015-08-24 06:00:43 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
my main problem with cruisers in level 4s is that for the most part they can just zoom around and be near immune to damage. My tengu fit used a deadspace small shield booster which was turn it on and forget about it. Also since they don't do a lot of damage it takes what feels like forever to chew through NPC battleships.

Jacob Holland wrote:
Something else to consider though...
If you can get enough agents close enough to each other and work out your methods - you may be able to string together Burners rather than the heavy standard L4s, spend your time running around like a lunatic in a frigate.


with high faction standings (pretty much as long as they stay above 5.0, I would suggest 6 or 7 for some buffer) you can run almost all burner missions on one agent. You can decline a lot of missions and stay above -2.0 standings (especially with diplomacy) as burner missions give pretty big standing boosts.

NightmareX wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
also don't loot in a battleships, just the thought of that is boring (for that matter probably don't even loot). get a noctis if you must. Loot values are at the lowest I've ever seen. in the time it takes to loot a rare item you could have easily killed a few more npcs, got some LP, and made more money.

The solution to that is Marauders. Sure, the Marauders costs way more than a normal battleship or even a Mach. But with a Vargur for example like i have, you can loot and salvage while killing the rats. So when you are ready to move to the next level after killing all of the rats on the first level (if there is several levels in a mission), then you have looted and salvaged everything.

In some level 4 missions, i can actually earn like 40-45 million isk in just loots and salvage from battleship npc's alone in one mission. So in the longer run, you will earn much better with a Marauder over a normal battleship where you have to either use an alt to loot (which defeats the point of running just one character) or where you have to dock up your battleship and then bring out a Noctis or a looting ship which will still be more effort or more time spent over just having a Marauder.


Maruaders are better for sure, but I don't usually come away with more than a few mil in loot. So little I should probably just stop using marauders and switch to a mach. I simply kill so much faster than I can loot, and many wrecks end up outside of tractor range. I tried an alt in a noctis for a while, but that loots so fast I end up spending most of my time on that character sitting there doing nothing. And especially now with burner missions the noctis has even less to do.



I thought they nerfed the agility of the Machs, so I ignored them, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I started playing around for Mach fits on PYFA, and they can actually fit T2 1400 arties quite well with a solid armor or shield tank. Sigh, all that time I spent training for the Paladins could have gone towards the Machs darnit.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#26 - 2015-08-24 10:58:55 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
my main problem with cruisers in level 4s is that for the most part they can just zoom around and be near immune to damage. My tengu fit used a deadspace small shield booster which was turn it on and forget about it. Also since they don't do a lot of damage it takes what feels like forever to chew through NPC battleships.

Jacob Holland wrote:
Something else to consider though...
If you can get enough agents close enough to each other and work out your methods - you may be able to string together Burners rather than the heavy standard L4s, spend your time running around like a lunatic in a frigate.


with high faction standings (pretty much as long as they stay above 5.0, I would suggest 6 or 7 for some buffer) you can run almost all burner missions on one agent. You can decline a lot of missions and stay above -2.0 standings (especially with diplomacy) as burner missions give pretty big standing boosts.

NightmareX wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
also don't loot in a battleships, just the thought of that is boring (for that matter probably don't even loot). get a noctis if you must. Loot values are at the lowest I've ever seen. in the time it takes to loot a rare item you could have easily killed a few more npcs, got some LP, and made more money.

The solution to that is Marauders. Sure, the Marauders costs way more than a normal battleship or even a Mach. But with a Vargur for example like i have, you can loot and salvage while killing the rats. So when you are ready to move to the next level after killing all of the rats on the first level (if there is several levels in a mission), then you have looted and salvaged everything.

In some level 4 missions, i can actually earn like 40-45 million isk in just loots and salvage from battleship npc's alone in one mission. So in the longer run, you will earn much better with a Marauder over a normal battleship where you have to either use an alt to loot (which defeats the point of running just one character) or where you have to dock up your battleship and then bring out a Noctis or a looting ship which will still be more effort or more time spent over just having a Marauder.


Maruaders are better for sure, but I don't usually come away with more than a few mil in loot. So little I should probably just stop using marauders and switch to a mach. I simply kill so much faster than I can loot, and many wrecks end up outside of tractor range. I tried an alt in a noctis for a while, but that loots so fast I end up spending most of my time on that character sitting there doing nothing. And especially now with burner missions the noctis has even less to do.



I thought they nerfed the agility of the Machs, so I ignored them, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I started playing around for Mach fits on PYFA, and they can actually fit T2 1400 arties quite well with a solid armor or shield tank. Sigh, all that time I spent training for the Paladins could have gone towards the Machs darnit.


Polarised Pulse, Aarmor tanked Paladin. Saw some clips, thing is absolutely batshit insane.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#27 - 2015-08-24 11:10:29 UTC
Polarised Pulse, Aarmor tanked Paladin. Saw some clips, thing is absolutely batshit insane.
[/quote]



Interesting, I'll look into this.
Sasmara
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2015-08-24 18:05:20 UTC
Opps sry Tengu, but thats boring too
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2015-08-26 09:54:46 UTC
Currently looking into a + 700 dps Ferox fit myself for lowsec ratting
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#30 - 2015-08-28 10:05:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Mithlob Loubbo wrote:
PS I'm mainly Caldari (shield/missiles) with some Amarr (Armor/lasers) and Minmatar (Focused on just ships up to Battleships). I'm primarily looking for that fun factor back and not the optimal isk/hour mentality for L4 Missions. Any additional help or advice is much appreciated.

Torpedo Golem. With 1-5 Ascendancy implants you can increase the warp speed to 2.94 AU/s, which is more than adequate for the vast majority of missions. Hydraulic rigs, Bastion and a +5 Zainou Deadeye projection implant will give you a 52km range with Faction ammunition (45km non-Bastion). With a single Faction target painter and two precision-scripted missile guidance computers you can more or less 1-shot most NPC frigates, destroyers, cruisers and battlecruisers (named NPCs will take 1-2 volleys more). Most battleships will take 3 volleys although you can frequently destroy Angel ones in 2.

The majority of NPCs will close to less than 40km, the exceptions being drones and Guristas. For these use a MJD to quickly get to the snipers. With the missile balance package in Aegis torpedoes are now 1/2 the volume - so they're not only the same size as cruise missiles - but T2 and Faction launchers hold 40 and 46 rounds, respectively (and you'll find yourself seldom reloading). Torpedoes still cost more, but you expend about half as much ammunition in a Golem - and with the higher torpedo rate of fire NPCs often don't have time to regenerate shields and armor to the same extent as they do with cruise missiles.

With the Golem's tank you can get away with a single adaptive invulnerability and Deadspace shield booster (Pith C-Type are reasonably cheap). I use a MWD for getting to mission gates or to close range in situations where the MJD is not ideal (such as only 10-20km). Add a tractor beam for pulling in cargo for mission objectives and you're basically set.

And it comes in black.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#31 - 2015-08-28 11:05:36 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mithlob Loubbo wrote:
PS I'm mainly Caldari (shield/missiles) with some Amarr (Armor/lasers) and Minmatar (Focused on just ships up to Battleships). I'm primarily looking for that fun factor back and not the optimal isk/hour mentality for L4 Missions. Any additional help or advice is much appreciated.

Torpedo Golem. With 1-5 Ascendancy implants you can increase the warp speed to 2.94 AU/s, which is more than adequate for the vast majority of missions. Hydraulic rigs, Bastion and a +5 Zainou Deadeye projection implant will give you a 52km range with Faction ammunition (45km non-Bastion). With a single Faction target painter and two precision-scripted missile guidance computers you can more or less 1-shot most NPC frigates, destroyers, cruisers and battlecruisers (named NPCs will take 1-2 volleys more). Most battleships will take 3 volleys although you can frequently destroy Angel ones in 2.

The majority of NPCs will close to less than 40km, the exceptions being drones and Guristas. For these use a MJD to quickly get to the snipers. With the missile balance package in Aegis torpedoes are now 1/2 the volume - so they're not only the same size as cruise missiles - but T2 and Faction launchers hold 40 and 46 rounds, respectively (and you'll find yourself seldom reloading). Torpedoes still cost more, but you expend about half as much ammunition in a Golem - and with the higher torpedo rate of fire NPCs often don't have time to regenerate shields and armor to the same extent as they do with cruise missiles.

With the Golem's tank you can get away with a single adaptive invulnerability and Deadspace shield booster (Pith C-Type are reasonably cheap). I use a MWD for getting to mission gates or to close range in situations where the MJD is not ideal (such as only 10-20km). Add a tractor beam for pulling in cargo for mission objectives and you're basically set.

And it comes in black.

So last time I looked at the torp Golem was before the missile comps. I was decidedly not a fan of the idea but I think the missile comps has really opened the Golem to regular mission running. I decided to experiment with a build before you added your own build suggestions. Now I don't have the advantage of having actually run a torp golem but I went with a bit of a different angle. I built it a lot like how I used to fly a vargur (with some mach experience thrown in). Mostly revolving around 2-3 MGCs and 1-2 TPs giving you the flexibility of choosing range vs application as the mission requires it. Quite a few rats orbit at rather long ranges but you always want to be able to maximize you application ability. Also taking into mind that the more DPS you can bring the less tank you need. That said I again use a more adaptable fit for tank, focusing on a single cheap DED large shield booster and a Capacitor Booster (giving well over 550 sustained omni tank). With this build the only thing you'll be switching out based on mission is the prop mod. Either the MWD, MJD or another MGC (Recon, Blockade, etc.)

Without implants Rage range is 51.5km and Javelin 92.7km (though you can switch to precision scripts for 68.3km for hitting elite cruisers)

[Golem]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script
Target Painter II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Pith C-Type Large Shield Booster
Target Painter II
Core C-Type 500MN Microwarpdrive

Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Bastion Module I
Salvager II
Salvager II
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

Hobgoblin II x5
Acolyte II x5
Salvage Drone I x5

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#32 - 2015-08-28 14:42:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Anize Oramara wrote:
[Golem]
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script
Target Painter II
Target Painter II

Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

MGCs are not ideally suited for range as they only give a scripted bonus of +22% range vs. +30% damage application. In addition, more than half of that is flight time which results in torpedoes literally taking forever to reach their targets. The missile velocity bonus from Bastion is not stacking penalized so you want to run a pair of hydraulic rigs to maximize torpedo velocity - otherwise you'll spend all your time counting volleys. A pair of target painters is fine for damage application, but if you run Faction ammunition you don't need the rigor rig and can get away with a single target painter. Rage ammunition is really only good against structures and battleships, because even with the rigor and target painters you'll be hard-pressed to apply anywhere near full damage to anything smaller than battleships or battlecruisers.

But there's certainly nothing wrong with your alternate fit - I'd love to hear how it performs in actual missions.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#33 - 2015-08-28 16:03:07 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
[Golem]
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script
Target Painter II
Target Painter II

Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

MGCs are not ideally suited for range as they only give a scripted bonus of +22% range vs. +30% damage application. In addition, more than half of that is flight time which results in torpedoes literally taking forever to reach their targets. The missile velocity bonus from Bastion is not stacking penalized so you want to run a pair of hydraulic rigs to maximize torpedo velocity - otherwise you'll spend all your time counting volleys. A pair of target painters is fine for damage application, but if you run Faction ammunition you don't need the rigor rig and can get away with a single target painter. Rage ammunition is really only good against structures and battleships, because even with the rigor and target painters you'll be hard-pressed to apply anywhere near full damage to anything smaller than battleships or battlecruisers.

But there's certainly nothing wrong with your alternate fit - I'd love to hear how it performs in actual missions.

Hmmm yes I can definitely see where you're coming from. I've only run Fleet Phoons, NRavens and Rattlers but form a quality of life POV faster torps would be way better. The range on Faction is just under 50km (74km with range scripts) and Javelin gives you somewhere in the 90km with two Hydraulics and range scripts. I'd still use two TPs (and in some missions a 3rd MGC scripted for application) to try and get the most out of rage torps on close in BS and BCs but I like the idea of being able to adapt to the situation in mission. The range profiles are comparable to a vargur though the damage numbers on Javelin is a bit lower than Barrage (but no falloff)

Sadly I'd probably end up in a paladin before a golem at this rate (need so many burner skills trained first too) but one day :P

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#34 - 2015-08-28 16:25:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Anize Oramara wrote:
Hmmm yes I can definitely see where you're coming from. I've only run Fleet Phoons, NRavens and Rattlers but form a quality of life POV faster torps would be way better. The range on Faction is just under 50km (74km with range scripts) and Javelin gives you somewhere in the 90km with two Hydraulics and range scripts. I'd still use two TPs (and in some missions a 3rd MGC scripted for application) to try and get the most out of rage torps on close in BS and BCs but I like the idea of being able to adapt to the situation in mission. The range profiles are comparable to a vargur though the damage numbers on Javelin is a bit lower than Barrage (but no falloff)

Sadly I'd probably end up in a paladin before a golem at this rate (need so many burner skills trained first too) but one day :P

One advantage with having both the hydraulics and MGCs is that you can swap out guidance for range scripts and get 60km with Faction ammunition (66km in Bastion), since flight time isn't stacking penalized. This is handy for situations where those pesky battleships occasionally sit just outside missile range. With V missile skills, implant and Bastion mode torpedo velocity is just over 6k/sec - so you don't feel like you're watching paint dry as they track to their targets. With Faction ammunition you only need a single target painter to apply 100% damage to battlecruisers or battleships - especially if you have IV or V electronic skills.

A Faction TP is also worth the extra ISK to gain another +10% effectiveness, but if you want to keep the cost down the Phased Weapon Navigation Arrays are just as effective as the T2s but only require 2/3's the power. What I really like with torpedoes is the high rate of fire and enhanced capacity which easily allows you to exceed 1300 DPS.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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