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Two exploitative game mechanics

Author
White and Dangerous
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-01-02 07:23:35 UTC
1: Neutral repping
I have no gripes about bringing allies to fights, however in highsec a wardec should be required to give support to someone engaging a war target. The reason being that in order to scout properly you must first know who all is going to potentially rep them, set standing, etc. More importantly however it allows the neutral reps to engage only when they are ready, thus allowing them to decide in advance what range they turn red at, etc. With highsec mercs bringing 10+ neutral logi's these days, it's just getting pretty obviously exploitative.

Sure there's ways of dealing with it, I'm simply suggesting it's a bad game mechanic, neutral shooting isn't allowed, neutral repping shouldn't be either, let them declare war like the rest of the ship roles.

2: Capital self destructing to deny killmails
It's stupid and exploitative, some may argue that "killmails don't matter". To some, that may be true, however to those players I say: why do you care then? Most of the Eve player base cares about killmails, some corps even evaluate members based on such statistics. Small gangs (like basically all wh gangs) will take longer than 2.5 mins to kill a cap, and they deserve those killmails. Some friends of mine just killed 3 caps, 5 tengus, and a rapier, but the km makes it look like they just blobed a bunch of tengus because all the caps SD'ed.

Outside of combat I am not advocating the removal of self destructing, it's an important feature. However, like the exploitative logoff mechanics that were fixed this last expansion, this too must go. Subcaps generally can't get away with it, capitals shouldn't be able to either.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#2 - 2012-01-02 09:48:59 UTC
As all the things above works perfectly as intended there are no exploits involved...
However I agree neutral remote repping is unfair because remotely assisting someone doesn't commit the ship in combat and therefor take no or very little risc doing it.

Capital ships self destructing is a perfect way to make sure no modules/loot falls into the hands of the agressors, however I agree it should still generate a killmail containing all involved parties including the ship owner...

Having listed the victim as the one getting final blow with "Self Destruction" as a weapon would be nice.

Pinky
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-01-02 12:58:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Neutral rep was maybe good back when 15 nerds wouldn't cross another 15 nerds before a month or two. Neutral rep is possible and the only thing you get is a flag allowing you to dock ( !!! ) and just disappears if you undock immediately.

Stupid mechanic made by some stupid guy for grieffer players. it's wasting a lot of players efforts, but doesn't matter, ships destroyed "show" the mechanic is good .... Roll

Self destruction? -should be proportional to ships size and apply dmg on everything in a certain radius from that explosion accordingly to cargo ammo amount, gun type used on said ship, and players skills (the higher they are the bigger should be the explosion)

Why this? - refuse to grieffers the easy picking, eventually destroy them in the process and I'm almost sure I could safely say that would sign the definite end of blobs.

For all the tears I'd collect, to read all the ragequit posts from nerds. Almost that good than sex Lol
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#4 - 2012-01-02 19:35:08 UTC
Quote:
Some friends of mine just killed 3 caps, 5 tengus, and a rapier, but the km makes it look like they just blobed a bunch of tengus because all the caps SD'ed.


That's because they did blob a bunch of tengus. The capitals wouldn't really change much because dreads can't kill subcaps and carriers can't kill anything while in triage. Thus your friends are blobbers regardless of how you want to spin it. In fact the size of the blob may have caused the capitals to decide they could not fight it off and self destruct to not waste time.
White and Dangerous
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-01-02 21:38:27 UTC
Quote:
Capital ships self destructing is a perfect way to make sure no modules/loot falls into the hands of the agressors

Self destructing changes nothing as far as drops are concerned, ship blows up, some stuff drops, some stuff doesn't.

Quote:
because dreads can't kill subcaps and carriers can't kill anything while in triage

Dreads can kill subcaps quite well actually with help from webs and painters. Pretty much the whole point of carriers in wormhole engagements is triage, carriers are not generally fielded in a dps role.

That said, none of the above is even important, unless your going to advocate for reducing the SD timer on subcaps so that they also can self destruct to avoid generating killmails, then its hard to understand why you think capital ships should be treated differently. How about we just decrease the timer to 5 seconds for everything? By your logic that would be a good change wouldn't it? After all why waste time if you know your going to loose?
White and Dangerous
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-01-02 21:51:59 UTC  |  Edited by: White and Dangerous
Quote:
As all the things above works perfectly as intended there are no exploits involved...

On a technical level the code is working properly, on a gamplay level I doubt either of these are working "as intended", which is really the most important point for consideration. From your post it sounds like you basically agree.

Of course almost everyone does agree with the basic problem regarding these two issues. Even most players who take advantage of the current system advocate for adjustment, they recognize that it is not good for the game. Many who SD caps take the view, "If others SD on me, why should I not SD on them?" and they have a point, it's an issue with the game, not so much the players.

Just as there were those selfish players who fought against the logoff mechanics being changed, so to are there are those that fight against fixing these obvious problems.
Lucas Quaan
Dark Enlightenment
New Eden Alliance 99013733
#7 - 2012-01-02 23:11:52 UTC
White and Dangerous wrote:
Quote:
Capital ships self destructing is a perfect way to make sure no modules/loot falls into the hands of the agressors

Self destructing changes nothing as far as drops are concerned, ship blows up, some stuff drops, some stuff doesn't.

If so, then this was changed recently and I would like to see some patch note or dev confirmation to that effect, because if it's true we should lobby for them to reverse it. Do you have first hand experience with loot dropping from self-destructs?
White and Dangerous
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-01-03 01:13:32 UTC  |  Edited by: White and Dangerous
Quote:
If so, then this was changed recently

I had assumed it worked the same as getting destroyed in any other way. I just tested and it looks like I was incorrect. I guess I'll have to tack that on to the list of reasons why SD is broken in it's current form.

Edit: Though to clarify, I don't necessarily mind SD blowing everything up, however the timeframe should not be such that it allows you to circumvent getting killed in combat.
Lucas Quaan
Dark Enlightenment
New Eden Alliance 99013733
#9 - 2012-01-03 10:46:11 UTC
White and Dangerous wrote:
Quote:
If so, then this was changed recently

I had assumed it worked the same as getting destroyed in any other way. I just tested and it looks like I was incorrect. I guess I'll have to tack that on to the list of reasons why SD is broken in it's current form.

Yeah, you should probably stop doing that before complaining about stuff you clearly know nothing about. This is the main reason why self-destruct is in fact not broken. There could be a case for looking over the timers, but the core mechanic of denying loot, and as a side bonus the killmail and enemy gratification, is a perfectly valid tactic.
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices
#10 - 2012-01-03 14:54:24 UTC
I think the solution for neutral repping seems easy. The repper should have aggression for the attacker of the target, so neutral reppers are immedietly involved in the fight, and can't just exploit the current game mechanics.

And selfdestructing generating a kill, listing the pilots with a selfdestruct weapon would besuffcient i guess. Though you still wouldn't have killmails, just the prey would have a lossmail. If you can find that, you'll have your killmail.