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Capitals, Hisec, and...Faction Standings?

Author
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#61 - 2015-08-11 16:15:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Hello station bumping mach let me introduce you too my station bumping mach Blink. All other areas are having the grind removed however capital ships all have their place in that style of warfare now. The issue is why should we add them to high sec. They can only increase the skill gap issues. Imagine marmite slow cat fleets camping innocent newbies to pad our boards etc. High sec is entry level space and at its endgame quite complex too but all the same entry level. A 50 man well put together newbro fleet can take on a 10 man vet fleet with guidance but you add a couple of repping carriers too that...

In summary of my drunken rambling but what have the romans ever done for us... no wait its what would capitals add for us

I hear what you're saying, and you're absolutely right. It would be very hard for newbros to stand up to carrier repping support, even if they had good leadership. The difference in capability is just too great.

However, I feel that the issues being raised with "entry level" place too much emphasis on new players and corps operating independently. Isn't the whole point of EvE to collaborate and make friends? What group of experienced hisec PvP-ers wouldn't love to take a crack at the Marmite repping carriers you mentioned? I can think of plenty. And what would an ideal tool for them to use? Dreadnoughts, backed up by a fleet of newbros fitted for cap warfare.

Don't constrain newbros to working in a vacuum. EvE isn't a vacuum, assume that they can get help. You've certainly proven that. Nullsec alliances flying cheap newbro doctrines have proven that too. (Incidentally, I hear that they do quite well against capital ships.)

EDIT:
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:

I think you really underestimate the gap between Nestor/ logistics reps and carrier reps +DPS if used for that. Or vindi DPS and moros or Phoenix DPS. We aren't talking a slight improvement it is 6 times more from the best we currently have. It would make newbro PvP as obsolete as it is in other space types

I'm not underestimating it at all, I'm just assuming that they'd find folks who can bring the same reps to the field. As I stated above, what group of experienced PvP-ers wouldn't love to take a crack at a Marmite carrier fleet in hisec?


EDIT2: And also don't forget, that this would only be an issue in 0.7 and below. Even if a group of newbros really wanted to stay independent, really didn't want help, and couldn't handle a capital-backed wardec, there would still be plenty of areas left for them to operate. Incidentally, most of the major trade hubs are included in these areas. Yes, I recognize that this is a limitation and could possibly reduce their quality of life and this is a valid point, but I feel this would just provide further motivation to reach out and find help. Isn't driving collaboration a good thing?

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#62 - 2015-08-11 16:26:16 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Hello station bumping mach let me introduce you too my station bumping mach Blink. All other areas are having the grind removed however capital ships all have their place in that style of warfare now. The issue is why should we add them to high sec. They can only increase the skill gap issues. Imagine marmite slow cat fleets camping innocent newbies to pad our boards etc. High sec is entry level space and at its endgame quite complex too but all the same entry level. A 50 man well put together newbro fleet can take on a 10 man vet fleet with guidance but you add a couple of repping carriers too that...

In summary of my drunken rambling but what have the romans ever done for us... no wait its what would capitals add for us

I hear what you're saying, and you're absolutely right. It would be very hard for newbros to stand up to carrier repping support, even if they had good leadership. The difference in capability is just too great.

However, I feel that the issues being raised with "entry level" place too much emphasis on new players and corps operating independently. Isn't the whole point of EvE to collaborate and make friends? What group of experienced hisec PvP-ers wouldn't love to take a crack at the Marmite repping carriers you mentioned? I can think of plenty. And what would an ideal tool for them to use? Dreadnoughts, backed up by a fleet of newbros fitted for cap warfare.

Don't constrain newbros to working in a vacuum. EvE isn't a vacuum, assume that they can get help. You've certainly proven that. Nullsec alliances flying cheap newbro doctrines have proven that too. (Incidentally, I hear that they do quite well against capital ships.)

EDIT:
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:

I think you really underestimate the gap between Nestor/ logistics reps and carrier reps +DPS if used for that. Or vindi DPS and moros or Phoenix DPS. We aren't talking a slight improvement it is 6 times more from the best we currently have. It would make newbro PvP as obsolete as it is in other space types

I'm not underestimating it at all, I'm just assuming that they'd find folks who can bring the same reps to the field. As I stated above, what group of experienced PvP-ers wouldn't love to take a crack at a Marmite carrier fleet in hisec?


EDIT2: And also don't forget, that this would only be an issue in 0.7 and below. Even if a group of newbros really wanted to stay independent, really didn't want help, and couldn't handle a capital-backed wardec, there would still be plenty of areas left for them to operate. Incidentally, most of the major trade hubs are included in these areas. Yes, I recognize that this is a limitation and could possibly reduce their quality of life and this is a valid point, but I feel this would just provide further motivation to reach out and find help. Isn't driving collaboration a good thing?

High sec is the last true bastion of the small gang. Don't take that away from it. Also I'm not sure what the merits of adding it are. Convince the nay sayers why should it change? I'm just seeing no pros

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#63 - 2015-08-11 16:29:07 UTC
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Also I'm not sure what the merits of adding it are. Convince the nay sayers why should it change? I'm just seeing no pros

I'm actually working on that post right now, as well as a list of the downsides in the interest of fairness. It's just taking a while because, well, you keep posting. Blink

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#64 - 2015-08-11 16:48:53 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
No problems we are all good. I can take and even deserve to be hit like this from time to time. Glad you are able to take it all in stride and not get upset.

After a few of my blunders in this thread (I'm especially kicking myself over the whole "insured gank dread" bit), I totally deserved some grief.

I see some issues with this idea that I hadn't considered before, so in that regards the discussion has been productive, but on the whole I still think it's viable.

Here's a summary of pros and cons so far:

CONS:
1. Carriers would obsolete freighters/Bowheads in hisec. If so, only to a limited degree (0.7 systems and below). Freighters/Bowheads would still be necessary for moving goods and ships to 0.8 and above and they both haul larger volume of their respective cargo, albeit with greatly less durability, than carriers.

2. Carriers could be loaded with haulers full of ammo. If there were going to be a thing, it would likely already be happening with Bowheads. Nobody seems to have heard anything about this yet, so I doubt it would be a thing.

3. Large groups would be able to safely store capital fleets in relative safety in hisec. Not likely in most cases due to increased effort and risk, which I discussed here.

4. Allowing capitals into hisec would raise the bar for newer players and corps to compete. A valid point to an extent. The differences in training, cost, and capabilities between subcaps and capital ships are significant and it takes much longer for new pilots to get into capital ships and be able to fly them effectively. (Don't forget that if they plan to only stay in hisec, the jump drive support skills (beyond ship requirements) become optional, saving them a non-trivial chunk of training time.) However, there would still be large areas of hisec where they could operate capital-free, and there would likely be no shortage of experienced mercs willing to help them if they ran into problems with capital-armed aggressors.

5. Allowing capitals in hisec would reduce travel times. In a few cases, yes, it undoubtedly would. But these are only cases where you are skirting around the edge of hisec, so you likely wouldn't save much time, and it would always require you to transit at least one losec entry system, which are not known for being the safest places. The restriction on 0.8+ systems means that you can't move a capital fleet from, say, Tribute to Providence through hisec (unless, of course, you want your entire capital fleet to go suspect). You'd need to take a long, convoluted route or use some losec jumps to make the trip, neither of which save you any significant time. And you'd be flying through more populated space that is easily accessible by scouts and alts so your odds of getting noticed are higher.

6. With POSes going away, what need is there for capital ships in hisec? By that logic, since POSes are going away everywhere, why have capital ships at all?

7. Your whole proposal is convoluted. It it's heart, it's really no more complicated than existing suspect/standings mechanics. If we've managed to deal with them for this long, this should be no real hardship.


PROS:
1. Increased opportunity for content. The more places you can have capital ships, the more opportunity there is to use them. Big ships going boom where more people will join in means huge opportunities for content.

2. A boost to industry. With increased demand for capital ships as pilots buy new ones for hisec use, or lose them in (or getting into) hisec, there will be increased opportunity for industrialists to step up and fill that demand.

3. Increased losec activity. With an increase to capital ship production (which still has to happen outside of hisec), you'll see more industrialists in losec. With more industry in losec, and with more capitals crossing gates into hisec, you'll see more PvP activity in losec as people step in and try to bag capital ships or freighters full of parts.

4. Shake up the market hubs. Of the current major hisec market hubs, only Hek would be able to sell capital ships directly. That kind of advantage would likely drive all manner of market, and actual, PvP as folks tried to establish themselves there, or even establish new market hubs in lower security hisec systems.

5. A higher endgame for "soft" MMO players. By providing a higher target for hisec-dwelling folks to aim for, you provide an incentive for them to stay in the game longer. If you're a mining corp who already flies Exhumers with Orca and Freighter support, mining will only appeal to you for so long. If you're a mission-runner who already has a fully decked-out Marauder, running missions in said Marauder will only appeal to you for so long. What mining corp wouldn't want a Rorqual? What mission-runner wouldn't want a capital ship (even if only a handful of hisec missions are open to them)? I hate to draw on experience from WoW, but upping the endgame for the majority of your base works at retaining players.

6. Compensation for grinding faction standings. I am no fan of grinding mechanics in general, but EvE has them, there's no indication of them going away, and there are a lot of players who spent a lot of time grinding faction standings only to see the utility of their effort gradually stripped away. I say we give some of it back to them.

7. It fits the lore. The empires are losing their grip, the Drifters are at their doorsteps...they need help from loyal capsuleers to maintain order.


You may be asking yourself, "Bronson you nub, why didn't you just say all of this up front?" Because, quite frankly, much of this came out of the discussion, which is why I'm glad we're having it.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#65 - 2015-08-11 17:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Noragen Neirfallas
I would like to preference all this by saying I am posting slightly drunk

Out of character for me but allow me to touch on only these 2 points in the cons
Bronson Hughes wrote:

4. Allowing capitals into hisec would raise the bar for newer players and corps to compete. A valid point to an extent. The differences in training, cost, and capabilities between subcaps and capital ships are significant and it takes much longer for new pilots to get into capital ships and be able to fly them effectively. (Don't forget that if they plan to only stay in hisec, the jump drive support skills (beyond ship requirements) become optional, saving them a non-trivial chunk of training time.) However, there would still be large areas of hisec where they could operate capital-free, and there would likely be no shortage of experienced mercs willing to help them if they ran into problems with capital-armed aggressors.

Wether we like to admit it or not highsec is where we dump newbros into the game. It is the entry level space. Its restrictions and protections are the most friendly to players in the game. People already feel they can't compete (I've been working hard for over a week showing people that numbers and tailored to purpose ship fittings take away the sp advantage and they can compete) with established groups. This will push that to a whole new extreme

Bronson Hughes wrote:

6. With POSes going away, what need is there for capital ships in hisec? By that logic, since POSes are going away everywhere, why have capital ships at all?

They already exist there. They do need a new role with hitpoint based objectives finally coming to a end. However that's a discussion for another thread. for now tho they are used to kill other capital ships Blink. Do we really want that in highsec? That you NEED to have Capital ships on standby just incase the other guy has capital ships...

Now I'm going to brief over the pros
Content and industry would see a slight increase (probably big for the first few months before tapering off) however it would mean NPC carriers are unkillable by all but the most dedicated suicide gank. It would make for ultra safe capital ships. Mission flipping would stop being as much of a profession too... It would drive more content out then it would create. Anybody not flying a carrier would find a lot more attention then they used too have as well from us more nefarious types

Market hubs are a bit meh. They would move 1 jump into highsec from their current lowsec systems. If anything buying a capital ship would become insanely safer

The goal already exists for the higher level of ship if people are so inclined. But with insanely greater ships for earning isk should come insanely MORE risk not less. It's already possible to live 99% risk free in highsec and couple that with a carrier and well we will hit that 100% mark and at that point we just destroyed risk/reward

So from me it is a giant thumbs down. I argued this with Tora in his CSM campaign for the same reasons. Highsec should remain unique in the way it's combat is from other areas. It doesn't need to be lowsec on easy mode or lowsec lite with concord and fac police being the only thing that separates it from lowsec

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#66 - 2015-08-11 17:31:10 UTC
I would like to follow this up with I like the fact your discussing it and how you are approaching it. I just don't like the idea itself Lol.

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#67 - 2015-08-11 17:54:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
I would like to preference all this by saying I am posting slightly drunk

Only slightly? Why good sir, I'm offended. Blink

Also only covering a limited set because "things".

Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Wether we like to admit it or not highsec is where we dump newbros into the game. It is the entry level space. Its restrictions and protections are the most friendly to players in the game. People already feel they can't compete (I've been working hard for over a week showing people that numbers and tailored to purpose ship fittings take away the sp advantage and they can compete) with established groups. This will push that to a whole new extreme

Again, I agree with you to an extent, and based on what you're doing out in Aridia, I can understand why this would be a huge concern to you. Newbros on their own would have no chance whatsoever against a capital-armed opponent, even with good leadership.

My beef with this is the "on their own" part. Shouldn't we be encouraging them to be joining older, more established players? It helps them learn the game faster and, from my experience, helps them want to stay longer. I see this as a way to do that.

Even though hisec is where all new players start, and arguably where the majority of new players play, it's not the only place for new players to play. There are entire fleet doctrines dedicated to newbros in large nullsec alliances and they get used to good effect. What's stopping large hisec alliances from doing the same thing?

I think you and I have said our respective peace about this. Thanks for hearing me through and responding honestly (even if drunkenly). We see the same issue, but we see it from different angles, so we have different opinions about it. Fair enough, that's how things go.


Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
I would like to follow this up with I like the fact your discussing it and how you are approaching it. I just don't like the idea itself Lol.

Thanks. I will totally troll someone in C&P or in-game, but I wanted this to be a rational discussion amongst equals, even if said equals don't agree. For the most part, I think it's been that so far.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#68 - 2015-08-11 18:25:41 UTC
I never get really drunk. I like to enjoy the flavour of what I drink and its relaxing properties. I dislike waking up with part of my memory missing.

PS aridia sucks and that is something we both agree upon

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#69 - 2015-08-27 14:48:08 UTC
Didn't read all the replies, but I'm in favor of allowing free access to combat capitals (not supers) to highsec via gates, and disabling jumping into or out of high (except JFs).

The problem with tying things to faction standings is it says to players "If you want to operate a capital in highsec, you must first run X missions, or spend Y time in FW".

That's like saying "Oh, you are interested in shooting other players? You're not allowed to do that until you log 11 hours mining". Or "You are interested in incursions? Sorry, not allowed until you successfully scam three other players in Jita".

EVE's strength is options. If you want to fly a Rattlesnake, you have several options (after you train the skills).

You can run Guristas sites, loot a BPC, mine, and build the Rattler yourself.
You can hunt down Goon ratters, probe them down as they finish a site, and blow them up and steal their BPCs.
You can buy a BPC on the Jita contract market.
You can find a Rattlesnake pilot, infiltrate their corp and steal their ship.
Or you can just buy the hull from the Hek market at a slight premium over Jita price.


On carriers creating unkillable station camps (one concern raised above): The same can be done cheaper with two Oneiroses providing logi support, and the Oneiroses are cheaper and can manage tracking enhancement too. Carrier-supported station camps might be effective but they won't be gamebreaking.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com