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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Splitting PLEX up

First post
Author
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2015-08-27 04:58:58 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Last I heard they were 6bil each On the Chinese servers. Ours has room to grow.
Indeed. They sat at a billion when I played there. I think that was about 5 years ago.

And here we are, at a billion on TQ. My heart bleeds. Roll


The chinese servers are also inundated with bots leading to dramatic inflation. Trying to draw any comparisons between the two is flawed from the beginning.

As for 10 billion being filthy rich... Maybe 7 or 8 years ago.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2015-08-27 05:16:15 UTC
Meanwhile 1.1 already.Roll

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Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#43 - 2015-08-27 05:19:32 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
So a few comments on the state of PLEX, Aurum, and services:


  1. Aurum can be purchased directly, and always gives you more Aurum/Dollar than buying a PLEX and converting that to Aurum.
  2. Aurum packages start at around $5 meaning there are options for people looking to make ISK or supplement their normal ISK income by reselling items from the NES.
  3. We do want to remove extraneous services from PLEX and have done so already. Many of the services you listed (multi-character training and character resculpt) are sold in the NES for Aurum, at a rate that is favourable to buy them for Aurum rather than PLEX. Many of these items have also been separated out in the in-game market, meaning you can purchase these services directly from the market for ISK.
  4. Globally, there is always more ISK coming in to the game than going out, which means over time inflation will occur, especially in "gold-standard" items such as PLEX which will never really lose their value (i.e they don't get rebalanced or nerfed).
  5. When prices do skyrocket for short periods of time, we monitor the subscription rate carefully to see if we need to intervene with a sale of some sort, or let the fluctuation smooth itself out.



#5 is interesting. Of course we knew the ECB monitored for abnormal price fluctuations in order to maintain stability. However, monitoring the subscription rate in order to determine the need for an intervention is new, and a bit odd. Stability is one thing, but one would think that subscriptions is a longer-term lagging indicator.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#44 - 2015-08-27 07:30:31 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
We've seen over the years a fairly consistent percentage of our player base PLEX their accounts. If this percentage begins to decline consistently, and is not being counteracted by an increase in subscriber counts, then I'm sure we would take a look in to the system.
So far, to my knowledge, even with the ruble plummeting recently, the overall subscriber ratio hasn't really been affected. People who couldn't afford to pay subscription began PLEXing their accounts. The same is true in reverse for the PLEX speculation spike that happened late last year. The overall subscriber count wasn't really affected. After the Black Friday PLEX sale PLEX prices hovered steadily around 800m ISK for around 4 months.

They began to PLEX accounts? Why? Was there a rise in subscription?
How banning ISBoxers affected PLEX market? Also are buying PLEX for cash and selling it on market is constant?

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Avvy
Doomheim
#45 - 2015-08-27 08:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Petrified wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:
Petrified wrote:
I wonder how well the SKINs have performed as an ISK sink...


They aren't an ISK sink. Anyone buying a SKIN for ISK is buying it from another player, who receives the ISK.


Ah... I see, you don't have the data regarding it. Since I can buy a PLEX for ISK then convert that PLEX into Aurum I can sink ISK into SKINs. So it is an ISK sink just as much as PLEXing one's account would be an ISK sink.

(seriously, when you guys were coming up with the name did someone say: "we could call it... ummm or... ummm... oh, Aurum! Lets call it that")


edit: it occurs to me that you might mean ISK sink in terms removing it from the game as opposed to transferring it through through mechanisms such as PLEX sales.



PLEXing an account isn't an isk sink, all what happens is you move isk between players using the in-game market.

For the same reason skins on the in-game market are not an isk sink.

Buying Aurum from CCP and buying skins from the shop to use yourself isn't an isk sink as there's no isk involved.



Edit:

In regards to your edit, removing it from the game is what an isk sink would do.

For instance if you could buy items from the shop with isk then the items you purchased would be an isk sink. See my edit on post #32 for why we don't use isk in the shop.
Beta Maoye
#46 - 2015-08-27 10:57:07 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:

We've seen over the years a fairly consistent percentage of our player base PLEX their accounts. If this percentage begins to decline consistently, and is not being counteracted by an increase in subscriber counts, then I'm sure we would take a look in to the system.
So far, to my knowledge, even with the ruble plummeting recently, the overall subscriber ratio hasn't really been affected. People who couldn't afford to pay subscription began PLEXing their accounts. The same is true in reverse for the PLEX speculation spike that happened late last year. The overall subscriber count wasn't really affected. After the Black Friday PLEX sale PLEX prices hovered steadily around 800m ISK for around 4 months.


It might not be the case that Russian cannot afford the subscription bacause of Ruble devaluation. It is the US banking systems do not accept payment from Russian banks due to international sanction. Thus Russian customers has no way to pay for their subscription, aurum or plex even if they have money in their bank accounts. Thus the in-game item PLEX might became the only way to pay for the game for some Russian customers.

May be CCP should ask the Russian community whether the sanction caused them problem of payment. CCP might also look into the possibility of widening their payment methods by accepting other international payment systems, such as China UnionPay. I believe Russian customers constituted a fair portion of EVE customer base. They might need some help.

Reference: Visa and MasterCard block Russian bank customers - headline from BBC news.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#47 - 2015-08-27 11:10:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Carniflex
This idea has my support. I have argued in favor of similar idea myself in the past in these very same forums: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4808411#post4808411

Although doe to the age of that thread it has been automatically locked by now.

Edit: I should perhaps clarify a bit that what I was (and still think is the best idea) is breaking the PLEX into more granular pieces. Exact size is not that important, be it then 1d "tokens" or some greater amount of say, 5 or 10 or 3 days. After all one can divide 30 in a number of different ways.

As it stands PLEX is basically the "gold standard" in EVE - higher granularity would just mean being able to chop the bar of gold into smaller chunks. Nuances of the idea have been discussed in the linked thread, which is, in essence, in my opinion similar enough to the ideas presented here.

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Avvy
Doomheim
#48 - 2015-08-27 11:19:50 UTC
Crimson Draufgange wrote:
- Under the new structure, instead of buying a PLEX from CCP to convert into aurum, I could buy an aurum token.


Op, I get the impression you are not aware that you can buy Aurum directly from CCP, there is no need to convert PLEX.
voetius
Grundrisse
#49 - 2015-08-27 11:26:42 UTC
Xackattack Avianson wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:
So a few comments on the state of PLEX, Aurum, and services:


  1. Aurum can be purchased directly, and always gives you more Aurum/Dollar than buying a PLEX and converting that to Aurum.
  2. Aurum packages start at around $5 meaning there are options for people looking to make ISK or supplement their normal ISK income by reselling items from the NES.
  3. We do want to remove extraneous services from PLEX and have done so already. Many of the services you listed (multi-character training and character resculpt) are sold in the NES for Aurum, at a rate that is favourable to buy them for Aurum rather than PLEX. Many of these items have also been separated out in the in-game market, meaning you can purchase these services directly from the market for ISK.
  4. Globally, there is always more ISK coming in to the game than going out, which means over time inflation will occur, especially in "gold-standard" items such as PLEX which will never really lose their value (i.e they don't get rebalanced or nerfed).
  5. When prices do skyrocket for short periods of time, we monitor the subscription rate carefully to see if we need to intervene with a sale of some sort, or let the fluctuation smooth itself out.


4. Why not implement more isk sinks into the game to help combat inflation and drive up the value of 1 ISK? With the removal of clone upgrades to protect SP, we have lost an ISK sink, wouldn't it make sense to replace that with a new isk sink?

5. Sneaky and Clever, i'm glad you're watching out for us.

All in all though, i wouldn't mind removal of converting PLEX to Aurum and adding in an Aurum token.


When CCP were talked about the removal of clone costs and the associated isk sink they said then (just after Cruis, I think it was a post by Fozzie but can't recall) that the isk being removed from the economy by the increase in Industry jobs and job costs was more or less balancing the removal of clone costs.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#50 - 2015-08-27 11:35:12 UTC
I did like the idea that CCP lower the ISK from rats and other means... and move to more material things...

What if rats provided more loot/salvage but lower bounty.
That they would drop BPCs more often for faction loot vs just dropping the loot.

Theres a lot of other means for monetary gain in EVE than just ISK.

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TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#51 - 2015-08-27 12:38:54 UTC
I still think PLEX needs to be removed from the game entirely and Aurum should become the defacto standard currency for anything related to purchasing game services or micro-transactions. There's no real reason to have these two currency's living besides one another, and Aurum would make it much easier to manage IMO. Instead of paying for a month at a time, players could use Aurum to buy a week or two weeks at a time.

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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#52 - 2015-08-27 12:40:20 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
You need a better understanding of macroeconomics before you are ready to make judgements about how something like PLEX affects the playerbase as a whole. The price is controlled by players. I can think of two main possible reasons the price may rise:
1.) the amount of ISK in circulation per player is increasing
2.) purchasing PLEX with ISK is becoming more popular

No arguments but you missed a major one here.

3.) people buying plex to sell has dropped, combined with #2 above is likely THE major reason why plex prices have and still are going up.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#53 - 2015-08-27 13:43:44 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:


What I do think you should do is add more blue loot kind of mechanics to eve.
You should introduce ways for people to steal from or mess with incursion runners and nullsec farms as it's a much riskless farm where near everything you get goes directly to your wallet.


I completely agree with this. NPC's should not pay out bounties. Instead, like the Empire Faction NPC's, they should drop tags, which then can be traded or redeemed for ISK. That collection and transportation time sink directly results in a decreased ISK/hour and more risk, which is a good thing.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#54 - 2015-08-27 13:58:33 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
Petrified wrote:
I wonder how well the SKINs have performed as an ISK sink...


They aren't an ISK sink. Anyone buying a SKIN for ISK is buying it from another player, who receives the ISK.

Well, there are the broker fees and sales tax. Anything that increases the velocity of money in this game creates small ISK sink.

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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2015-08-27 14:16:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
CCP Terminus wrote:
Xackattack Avianson wrote:


4. Why not implement more isk sinks into the game to help combat inflation and drive up the value of 1 ISK? With the removal of clone upgrades to protect SP, we have lost an ISK sink, wouldn't it make sense to replace that with a new isk sink?

5. Sneaky and Clever, i'm glad you're watching out for us.

All in all though, i wouldn't mind removal of converting PLEX to Aurum and adding in an Aurum token.


We can implement ISK sinks and slow the rise, but it will always go up. I mean it's not like you can go in to debt in EVE (at least through game mechanics), and the vast majority of people are ISK positive.

One idea is making rat availability rely on local markets. How deep this is set is optional, but the most minimal design is just their showing up on a fulfillment (like an ISK value for items on the market.. or just sales). A more depthy version is that those market items are removed from the market for their fleets, with the minimal (or somewhat better) drop chance (maybe even that of PvP). This produces a net negative for all items that are produced and makes plenty of room for improving the QOL of industry niches (gameplay, reduced SP, etc.). They could only buy up a certain meta of modules, or only what is required for developing their versions, et al. There are obviously statistics on ratting, and getting a few infographs is a neat idea.

"But that's more ISK generation if those items are purchased." Technically, they could get loot from LP store purchases, taxes, percentages of ship values lost through PvE; or the ISK made from industry could balance out a reduced bounty meta. The dynamism also sets up sets up a competitive null.

On QOL, there are roles that ships could fill, for fleets that would require the hauling space, while "raiding" NPC locations.. as well as anything that reduces the necessity of AFK mining, like "dropping/constructing a mining probe" and fulfilling other roles in the system -- plausibly also construction.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.

Danny Centauri
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#56 - 2015-08-27 14:31:20 UTC
I personally don't mind the prices, but I do think it may be wise to limit the number of plex that can be held on a single account to somewhere in region of 24 to prevent PLEX hoarding. This is also better for CCP as until a PLEX is consumed it's a liability so it's in their best interest for them to be consumed.

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Circumstantial Evidence
#57 - 2015-08-27 14:35:33 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
What I do think you should do is add more blue loot kind of mechanics to eve.
You should introduce ways for people to steal from or mess with incursion runners and nullsec farms as it's a much riskless farm where near everything you get goes directly to your wallet.
I completely agree with this. NPC's should not pay out bounties. Instead, like the Empire Faction NPC's, they should drop tags, which then can be traded or redeemed for ISK. That collection and transportation time sink directly results in a decreased ISK/hour and more risk, which is a good thing.
Oh my, that would increase the importance of tight-nit Incursion fleets that fairly distribute tags at the end of a session, and really slow the isk/hr during all that newly-necessary tag trading. Please, no. RL happens and players come and go from these fleets all the time; automatic isk payment has got to be a major facilitator of casually joining and leaving.

New redemption tags could lead to new highsec gate-camping by Catalyst swarms, performing "taxation duties" around Incursion systems, with renewed interest in looking for blinged battleships (and logi ships: lower EHP,) some potentially carrying a billion worth of these new tags, when they quit for the day and head toward a cash-out station.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#58 - 2015-08-27 15:03:28 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
What I do think you should do is add more blue loot kind of mechanics to eve.
You should introduce ways for people to steal from or mess with incursion runners and nullsec farms as it's a much riskless farm where near everything you get goes directly to your wallet.
I completely agree with this. NPC's should not pay out bounties. Instead, like the Empire Faction NPC's, they should drop tags, which then can be traded or redeemed for ISK. That collection and transportation time sink directly results in a decreased ISK/hour and more risk, which is a good thing.
Oh my, that would increase the importance of tight-nit Incursion fleets that fairly distribute tags at the end of a session, and really slow the isk/hr during all that newly-necessary tag trading. Please, no. RL happens and players come and go from these fleets all the time; automatic isk payment has got to be a major facilitator of casually joining and leaving.

New redemption tags could lead to new highsec gate-camping by Catalyst swarms, performing "taxation duties" around Incursion systems, with renewed interest in looking for blinged battleships (and logi ships: lower EHP,) some potentially carrying a billion worth of these new tags, when they quit for the day and head toward a cash-out station.

I'm ok with payouts being increased to offset the hassle.

Incursion runners don't interact with other players and that needs to change.
Could make it so that tag that drops gets handed in by guy they get option to share revenue at full payout to everyone who was in site during the time or take it for himself at 50% value of everyone that would otherwise get it.

Adds more trust things to fleets and a way for thiefs to steal your isk.

You can merrily blow those thiefs up if rats won't.

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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#59 - 2015-08-27 15:51:29 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
What I do think you should do is add more blue loot kind of mechanics to eve.
You should introduce ways for people to steal from or mess with incursion runners and nullsec farms as it's a much riskless farm where near everything you get goes directly to your wallet.
I completely agree with this. NPC's should not pay out bounties. Instead, like the Empire Faction NPC's, they should drop tags, which then can be traded or redeemed for ISK. That collection and transportation time sink directly results in a decreased ISK/hour and more risk, which is a good thing.
Oh my, that would increase the importance of tight-nit Incursion fleets that fairly distribute tags at the end of a session, and really slow the isk/hr during all that newly-necessary tag trading. Please, no. RL happens and players come and go from these fleets all the time; automatic isk payment has got to be a major facilitator of casually joining and leaving.

New redemption tags could lead to new highsec gate-camping by Catalyst swarms, performing "taxation duties" around Incursion systems, with renewed interest in looking for blinged battleships (and logi ships: lower EHP,) some potentially carrying a billion worth of these new tags, when they quit for the day and head toward a cash-out station.


To be honest, I was not thinking of that in Incursions - only for mission, anomalies, belts, etc. Incursions should just be straight up removed and replaced with something else. But that is a whole different kettle of fish.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#60 - 2015-08-27 17:53:00 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
Xackattack Avianson wrote:


4. Why not implement more isk sinks into the game to help combat inflation and drive up the value of 1 ISK? With the removal of clone upgrades to protect SP, we have lost an ISK sink, wouldn't it make sense to replace that with a new isk sink?

5. Sneaky and Clever, i'm glad you're watching out for us.

All in all though, i wouldn't mind removal of converting PLEX to Aurum and adding in an Aurum token.


We can implement ISK sinks and slow the rise, but it will always go up. I mean it's not like you can go in to debt in EVE (at least through game mechanics), and the vast majority of people are ISK positive.

Yes but a slow rise is always preferred as people adapt gradually and are not shocked. Prices held for 4 months last year around 800M and now they are 25% more expensive. That is a significant increase.

I think non-permanent SKINS are a great place to introduce ISK sinks. Offer certain 30/60 day SKINS only from NPCs for ISK and see how that goes. Also since it is best to remove ISK from the rich, I think making a few high end materials used for capitals or citadels be available only through NPC purchases.