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Dual tanking - Procurer

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Abraham Kennedy
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-08-26 22:34:42 UTC
I gots a Procurer and on another post I mentioned I had tanked my shields and I was thinking of placing armor rigs. A quick response was adamant about NOT DOING SO!

So I heed most advice yet - this guy said stick with shield rigs. Don't mix them up.

Okay.

So I look at the shield rigs and lo and behold they are a significant negative affect on my sig radius! A substantial negative affect on my sig radius in fact. So I re-look at the armor rigs affect and it has a drawback on my cargo hold.

So what? I use the cargo hold to store the few items I salvage from my kills. They are small.

So in this case it seems dual tanking cannot harm me. Am I wrong?

I just realized this is my alt character. No wonder people thought I was a virgin noobie. lol
Paranoid Loyd
#2 - 2015-08-26 22:50:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
If you are going to dual tank, you should use bulkheads (hull) not armor.

[Procurer, 88K]
Damage Control II
Reinforced Bulkheads II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Medium Shield Extender II

Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Transverse Bulkhead I
Medium Transverse Bulkhead I
Medium Transverse Bulkhead I

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Abraham Kennedy
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-08-26 22:55:29 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
If you are going to dual tank, you should use bulkheads (hull) not armor.

[Procurer, 88K]
Damage Control II
Reinforced Bulkheads II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Medium Shield Extender II

Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Transverse Bulkhead I
Medium Transverse Bulkhead I
Medium Transverse Bulkhead I


Thanks for this.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#4 - 2015-08-26 23:08:03 UTC
The increased sig from those rigs is irrelevant.

You're already a large, slow, target. Being larger doesn't hurt you any extra.


If you're going for maximum EHP, hull tank rigs are what you want with the Damage Control and Bulkhead fitted. Otherwise, I think the shield rigs are the next best thing (which is useful because you can then put Laser Upgrades in the low slots).
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2015-08-26 23:50:55 UTC
Just to point out, the "Transverse Bulkhead" rigs listed on Loyd's fit are actually rigs that affect you hull hp, not armor hp. The drawback to these is, in fact, a loss of cargo space, but that loss only affects the ships regular cargohold. Specialty holds like the Procurer's ore hold are unaffected. These are different than armor rigs, which have a drawback of reducing your ship's maximum speed. Try not to mix the two up.

(Note: I know that the bulkhead rigs show up in the Armor Rigs market category. This is because they're a fairly New item and are the only rig that affect hull hp positively. CCP got a little lazy here and just stuck them in with Armor rigs. They are not armor rigs)

Having said all that, I used a set up similar to what Loyd posted, except I split my three rigs between anti-em, anti-therm, and anti-kinetic rigs and used a medium ancillary shield booster instead of an EM ward field. This gave me a nice amount of ehp and thick shield resistences, plus some strong active reps in the event I needed them.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2015-08-27 00:22:35 UTC
I did some quick math. On an all level 5 character in a proc with a T1 strip and 2 T2 MLUs and assuming you are solo mining veld with no fleet boost and no orca / rorqual boosts and assuming you sell the ore for jita buy prices you will make about 1.4 million per hour more by fitting for yeild than fitting for all tank.

Given that the ship and 3 mods goes for 26 million currently that means you you need to get about 18 more hours of minning time out of the proc fit for yield than out of the one fit for tank before it pays for it's self.

Since this is pretty much a worst case scenario (except for skills) anything other than this pretty much reduces that 18 hours.

The one qualifier that I will add is that is 18 hours of mining lazor up time. All the normal mining stuff like docking to unload and time lost on small roids etc.. still need to be figured in.

What I am trying to say is that the 19% or so boost that you get from the MLUs can pay for a new ship in not too long. However often one extreme over the other is not a good way to go about things. So maybe there is a happy medium between max yield and max tank.

Also just being in fleet with someone with passive leadership skills can get you 10% more shield and 10% more armor HP as well as 10% more yield as well as friends in the same system with you. As with most situations in Eve your challenges are more easily over come with friends than with modules.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Memphis Baas
#7 - 2015-08-27 00:30:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Dual tanking in general harms you because each ship is limited in the following:

- high slots, medium slots, low slots, rig slots
- power grid, CPU
- capacitor recharge (provides energy to run things)

So, you have the free slots, but trying to put in shields AND armor will only allocate about half the powergrid to each kind of defense. Powergrid is very limiting in most non-combat ships, and often you can super-size the shields (with shield extenders) or armor (with armor plates) if you have good Engineering / Energy skills and a good fit. For example, most cruisers typically use cruiser-sized armor or shields, but if you eliminate the guns (free up some powergrid) and rely on drones on a Vexor cruiser, you can put in battleship-sized (large) shield extenders or armor plates (this doubles the defense).

Typically, combat goes like this: attacker appears, locks you up, and then shoots you with everything he's got, guns, missiles, drones, overheated, everything. It's better to have one big defense that can withstand that, than to have 2 weak defenses that are going to be chewed up sequentially.

As far as sig radius, it matters a lot for frigates. A mining barge is way too slow to take advantage of speed tanking, agility, or any of the tricks that the frigates use to survive. The barge is paper-thin, but behaves like a (slow) cruiser, so you have to defend it as one (install armor or shields, rather than rely on agility).
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#8 - 2015-08-27 00:34:31 UTC
The reason you are not supposed to duel tank is because....

Memphis Baas wrote:
When an enemy sees you, they will shoot you with everything they have. Defending against that is like defending against a tsunami wave: you put all the effort into making the tallest wall possible, rather than 2 smaller walls.

Your ship will have a limited number of slots, and limited power and CPU for modules, so if you're going to tank it, put all that power and the maximum number of slots that you can use into making one big defense (shields, or armor), rather than two small defenses.

Keep in mind... certain rigs add on a percentage of extra armor/shields/hull... so you want to slap on a rig that beefs up the highest raw HP value.


Also... there are really only 2 fits for a Procurer... Blink

[Procurer, CAN'TGANKMENOW]
Damage Control II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Medium Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Hobgoblin II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5


- With max skills it has ~81,000 effective hp... which is stupid high for a ship of its class and price
(NOTE: it would take a minimum of 10 to 15 destroyers to gank this ship in 0.5 space... more if it is in a higher security system. This requires concerted effort on the part of gankers to kill it... so they will leave you be as they have easier targets to pick from)

- Keep the ECM drones out and set to "Aggressive" for an added layer of safety (they have a good chance of jamming the first person to shoot you). Use the Hobgoblins to kill annoying NPCs and "abandon" those wrecks as soon as you make them.



[Procurer, NOimmagankYOU]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II

Medium Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II

Strip Miner I

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Hobgoblin II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5


- with max skills it has ~64,000 effective hp... but it can now keep hostiles from escaping! Twisted

- ~170 damage per second is not good, but not terrible either. It can certainly grind down some frigates and Tech 1 destroyers with relative ease. Tech 2 frigates it can kill with some difficulty. Anything beyond that and you need help.

How did you Veterans start?
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#9 - 2015-08-27 02:15:48 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
- Keep the ECM drones out and set to "Aggressive" for an added layer of safety (they have a good chance of jamming the first person to shoot you). Use the Hobgoblins to kill annoying NPCs and "abandon" those wrecks as soon as you make them.

afaik drones don't do that anymore. Remember seeing a post saying drones wouldn't ever do anything that would create a limited engagement without direct player input. Think it was part of the mobile depot drone aggro fix or something X

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#10 - 2015-08-27 03:06:04 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
- Keep the ECM drones out and set to "Aggressive" for an added layer of safety (they have a good chance of jamming the first person to shoot you). Use the Hobgoblins to kill annoying NPCs and "abandon" those wrecks as soon as you make them.

afaik drones don't do that anymore. Remember seeing a post saying drones wouldn't ever do anything that would create a limited engagement without direct player input. Think it was part of the mobile depot drone aggro fix or something X

You being aggressed creates a LE.

You're confusing it with auto aggressing people that shoot your MTUs... which did get patched out.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2015-08-27 05:24:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
If you are going to dual tank, you should use bulkheads (hull) not armor.

[Procurer, 88K]
Damage Control II
Reinforced Bulkheads II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Medium Shield Extender II

Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Transverse Bulkhead I
Medium Transverse Bulkhead I
Medium Transverse Bulkhead I


Loyd must know the right fit, he only lost 2000 ships this year

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Bitevni Shalina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2015-08-27 07:12:47 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
If you are going to dual tank, you should use bulkheads (hull) not armor.

[Procurer, 88K]
Damage Control II
Reinforced Bulkheads II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Medium Shield Extender II

Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Transverse Bulkhead I
Medium Transverse Bulkhead I
Medium Transverse Bulkhead I


Loyd must know the right fit, he only lost 2000 ships this year



Modulated Strip Miner II without mining crystal? Yield will be lower, than with Modulated Strip Miner I... Very few gankers use trashers - most use catalysts and so EM hardener is useless. I think I posted much better fits with relevant stats in OP's other thread about very same matter.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#13 - 2015-08-27 08:51:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
Tbh, a procurer isn't exactly a logical target to go for because it already has way more EHP than its counterparts. Because of that you just have to add some resists/extenders and then you're fine to add modules that augment your mining as there's really no need for this "must maximise my EHP at all cost because :reasons:" hysteria.

[Procurer, Tanked]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Survey Scanner II
Medium Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Hobgoblin II x5
Mining Drone II x5
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-08-27 09:34:45 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
[You being aggressed creates a LE.

You're confusing it with auto aggressing people that shoot your MTUs... which did get patched out.


Wrong, if you perform no hostile action you do not get a limited engagement timer.

Art of Explosions
Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2015-08-27 10:09:59 UTC
0/10 no DCU would not mine with.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#16 - 2015-08-27 11:40:59 UTC
Yang Aurilen wrote:
0/10 no DCU would not mine with.


Procurer doesn't need a DCU.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#17 - 2015-08-27 11:42:43 UTC
https://o.smium.org/loadout/37949 is also an option Blink

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Abraham Kennedy
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2015-08-27 12:36:50 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Dual tanking in general harms you because each ship is limited in the following:

- high slots, medium slots, low slots, rig slots
- power grid, CPU
- capacitor recharge (provides energy to run things)

So, you have the free slots, but trying to put in shields AND armor will only allocate about half the powergrid to each kind of defense. Powergrid is very limiting in most non-combat ships, and often you can super-size the shields (with shield extenders) or armor (with armor plates) if you have good Engineering / Energy skills and a good fit. For example, most cruisers typically use cruiser-sized armor or shields, but if you eliminate the guns (free up some powergrid) and rely on drones on a Vexor cruiser, you can put in battleship-sized (large) shield extenders or armor plates (this doubles the defense).

Typically, combat goes like this: attacker appears, locks you up, and then shoots you with everything he's got, guns, missiles, drones, overheated, everything. It's better to have one big defense that can withstand that, than to have 2 weak defenses that are going to be chewed up sequentially.

As far as sig radius, it matters a lot for frigates. A mining barge is way too slow to take advantage of speed tanking, agility, or any of the tricks that the frigates use to survive. The barge is paper-thin, but behaves like a (slow) cruiser, so you have to defend it as one (install armor or shields, rather than rely on agility).


Thanks for replying.

My capacitor is huge on this ship with my skills. It barely depletes with everything on now and I have 4 shield thingys in mid, and two MLU I's in low and the strip miner in hi. My shields already are not weak and bolstering my armor seems prudent. My shields are at 10K+ so it seems pretty good, everything being relative. My hull is at 6875. Is this paper thin? Sure, compared to a capital ship.
Abraham Kennedy
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-08-27 12:50:45 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
Just to point out, the "Transverse Bulkhead" rigs listed on Loyd's fit are actually rigs that affect you hull hp, not armor hp. The drawback to these is, in fact, a loss of cargo space, but that loss only affects the ships regular cargohold. Specialty holds like the Procurer's ore hold are unaffected. These are different than armor rigs, which have a drawback of reducing your ship's maximum speed. Try not to mix the two up.

(Note: I know that the bulkhead rigs show up in the Armor Rigs market category. This is because they're a fairly New item and are the only rig that affect hull hp positively. CCP got a little lazy here and just stuck them in with Armor rigs. They are not armor rigs)

Having said all that, I used a set up similar to what Loyd posted, except I split my three rigs between anti-em, anti-therm, and anti-kinetic rigs and used a medium ancillary shield booster instead of an EM ward field. This gave me a nice amount of ehp and thick shield resistences, plus some strong active reps in the event I needed them.



Good point about the bulkhead reinforcement. It seems to me that tanking the hull is the scary way to go for me. If they got past my shields then my armor and they are working on tearing down my hull, my BP would go through the roof.

I guess it would best for me to tank shields.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2015-08-27 12:59:05 UTC
Hull tank is awesome, your shields and armour go and then you just see your Hull hp stuck as if it were bugged :p

also a lot of the time lulls people into a false sense of security/confidence

Art of Explosions
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