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Feature Idea: Replace wormhole polarization popup with timer indicator

First post
Author
Vasama
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#21 - 2015-08-24 20:01:04 UTC
Basically I think the feature is unnecessary and it is pushing info that players should be able to track easily anyway. Main benefit for any kind of visual polarization timer is that it helps multiboxing. I don't mean that multiboxing is bad, but features that will aid that - specially in WH space - should not be introduced.

Vasama




Kaivaja
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2015-08-24 22:03:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaivaja
At first this may sound like a good idea, but it's not. Why? It rewards sloppy play. The easily visible timer would help you to avoid mistakes that would otherwise risk your ship. This would narrow the gap between playing well and playing badly. Change like this is not good game design, IMO. CCP, please reconsider this.
Barry Black
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-08-24 22:09:59 UTC
I got another great idea..... how about put a mass counter on the side so ppl dont have to do math.
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2015-08-25 06:44:46 UTC
Vasama wrote:
Basically I think the feature is unnecessary and it is pushing info that players should be able to track easily anyway.


So then should we get rid of aggression timer indicators, what about jump fatigue timers, boosters timers? Tac-Dessie mode timers? reload timers? Structure anchor timers? cycle timers for all modules? If players should be able to "easily track" arbitrary counters, then why have any of them at all?

Did you complain when micro jump drives got a cool down wheel?

Any comment even remotely reminicscent of "we don't need it, get a stop watch", should be considered asinine and be ignore CCP. This is a great implementation.

+1
Vasama
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#25 - 2015-08-25 08:49:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Vasama
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:
Vasama wrote:
Basically I think the feature is unnecessary and it is pushing info that players should be able to track easily anyway.


So then should we get rid of aggression timer indicators, what about jump fatigue timers, boosters timers? Tac-Dessie mode timers? reload timers? Structure anchor timers? cycle timers for all modules? If players should be able to "easily track" arbitrary counters, then why have any of them at all?

Did you complain when micro jump drives got a cool down wheel?

Any comment even remotely reminicscent of "we don't need it, get a stop watch", should be considered asinine and be ignore CCP. This is a great implementation.

+1


There is difference between timers and timers. Stuff that is happening inside your ship or pod are fine and have good grounds to be there. With the current mechanics you do have the time of your last WH activation - all you have to do is compare clock ( local left corner by default in your client) to local timestamp. But wormhole itself is such a strategic and tactical element that such a powerful aid for multiboxing should not be introduced.

The difference with the aggression timer to this is that it will tell you what a 3rd party will or can do etc. To track those timers you would really need stopwatch. But tracking WH polarization stopwatch is not needed.

Should CCP introduce the WH timer as seen on the CCP FoxFours tweet I'm one of the first guys to take advantage of it. But I just think that it does not contribute to gameplay as whole - quite opposite, current way is better. Getting slight inaccuracy will make it harder to optimize multiboxing hole rolling etc. The evils of this feature out weight benefit of it.

Vasama
Vasama
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#26 - 2015-08-25 08:52:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Vasama
Mouse acting up pls delete this Sorry
Vasama
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#27 - 2015-08-25 08:53:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Vasama
Mouse acting up pls delete this Sorry
Vasama
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#28 - 2015-08-25 08:55:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Vasama
Mouse acting up pls delete this. Sorry
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2015-08-25 11:22:11 UTC
Vasama wrote:
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:
Vasama wrote:
Basically I think the feature is unnecessary and it is pushing info that players should be able to track easily anyway.


So then should we get rid of aggression timer indicators, what about jump fatigue timers, boosters timers? Tac-Dessie mode timers? reload timers? Structure anchor timers? cycle timers for all modules? If players should be able to "easily track" arbitrary counters, then why have any of them at all?

Did you complain when micro jump drives got a cool down wheel?

Any comment even remotely reminicscent of "we don't need it, get a stop watch", should be considered asinine and be ignore CCP. This is a great implementation.

+1


There is difference between timers and times. Stuff that is happening inside your ship or pod are fine and have good grounds to be there. With the current mechanics you do have the time of your last WH activation - all you have to do is compare clock ( local left corner by default in your client) to local timestamp. But wormhole itself is such a strategic and tactical element that such a powerful aid for multiboxing should not be introduced.

The difference with the aggression timer to this is that it will tell you what a 3rd party will or can do etc. To track those timers your would really need stopwatch. But tracking WH polarization stopwatch is not needed.

Should CCP introduce the WH timer as seen on the CCP FoxFours tweet I'm one of the first guys to take advantage of it. But I just think that it does not contribute to gameplay as whole - quite opposite, current way is better. Getting slight inaccuracy will make it harder to optimize multiboxing hole rolling etc. The evils of this feature out weight to benefit of it.

Vasma


Are You serious????


CCP Foxfour great change, but I cant find it in patch notes?
Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
#30 - 2015-08-25 11:55:59 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Great idea! So we did it: https://twitter.com/CCP_FoxFour/status/635770834494337024

The orange circle shows as long as you're on grid, but the raw time left only when you hover over it.


Woot!
DoToo Foo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2015-08-25 13:02:46 UTC
Barry Black wrote:
I got another great idea..... how about put a mass counter on the side so ppl dont have to do math.


If you want a mass counter for friendly ships, get tripwire.

We should know what our ships do and are capable of. We do not need to know what other ships do apart from in game observation.

http://foo-eve.blogspot.com.au/

Raphendyr Nardieu
Avanto
Hole Control
#32 - 2015-08-25 18:56:11 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:

CCP Foxfour great change, but I cant find it in patch notes?


Not in todays patch. They surprisingly need to do testing first ;)
Raphendyr Nardieu
Avanto
Hole Control
#33 - 2015-08-25 19:01:56 UTC
DoToo Foo wrote:
Barry Black wrote:
I got another great idea..... how about put a mass counter on the side so ppl dont have to do math.


If you want a mass counter for friendly ships, get tripwire.

We should know what our ships do and are capable of. We do not need to know what other ships do apart from in game observation.



I do acree with this. Polarisation timer is already known (e.g, local chat or that popup) os it is not added information. Mass would be added information. We already have different wormhole sizes to tell about mass, so no need for more. Mass and wormhole collapsing time can be found from show info.

Basically if polarisation time would be random (as the wormhole existence and mass are), then this kind of indicator would not work. As it is what it is, it can be.

When you get your self polarized and in bubble, now you can notice that "oh crap, I polarized my self" and then you burn out of bubble instead of back to the hole. I believe this is one of those rare cases, where gameplay is effected by this change.
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#34 - 2015-08-25 21:06:39 UTC
Vasama wrote:
[quote=Kasia en Tilavine]
There is difference between timers and timers.

But tracking WH polarization stopwatch is not needed.

current way is better.

Getting slight inaccuracy will make it harder to optimize multiboxing hole rolling etc. The evils of this feature out weight benefit of it.


I can't even... I strait up can't even.

If you are in a combat situation, a stopwatch is exactly what you need right now to know the first few seconds that you can safely dive past a blockade and activate the Hole, maybe giving you precious few more seconds before the enemy can enter themselves. Precision is something you cannot do with the current mechanics. Which in my opinion is sorely lacking.

"current way is better" .... what?

You are really going all in on the "don't buff multiboxing!!!" argument aren't you? My god. A buff to multiboxing. If someone is multiboxing to roll a hole, they only have to be accurate to the minute, not seconds. Because they're not potentially under threat of combat, and If they're under fire, they're already at such a huge disadvantage simply because they are mutliboxing. Its a complete moot point.
Vasama
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#35 - 2015-08-26 09:18:07 UTC
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:
I can't even... I strait up can't even.

If you are in a combat situation, a stopwatch is exactly what you need right now to know the first few seconds that you can safely dive past a blockade and activate the Hole, maybe giving you precious few more seconds before the enemy can enter themselves. Precision is something you cannot do with the current mechanics. Which in my opinion is sorely lacking.

"current way is better" .... what?


I think you have just brought up exactly one more reason why this change should not be introduced. Kaivaja mentioned this issue on the post #22 on this thread:

"At first this may sound like a good idea, but it's not. Why? It rewards sloppy play. The easily visible timer would help you to avoid mistakes that would otherwise risk your ship. This would narrow the gap between playing well and playing badly. "

IMHO making aids that help one runaway and use WH as a tank is not what this game should have. On multiboxing this goes beyond hole crashing - it is just an example. Definately useful on hole camps. But yes I see the single biggest aid for this for multiboxing. For the mentioned precision one needs SA not stopwatch. And SA is and should be on trait that good combat pilot develops.

Anyhow not introducing this change would be in line with philosophy of the planned fleet warp changes.

Vasama

PS. It would be interesting to see what CSM has to say about this topic.
Kaivaja
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-08-26 14:11:48 UTC
It's far too easy to fall for the incorrect thinking that "a new feature that gives more power to the player makes the game better". Sometimes it can be so, but most often it is not.

Good game design doesn't give constantly more power to the players. Good game design makes players face solvable problems and forces them to make painful compromises, and sometimes even forces them to face problems that have only bad, painful solutions and players are forced to make a decision that really matters. A good example of this is ship fitting in Eve. Imagine how lame it would be if you always had the powergrid, CPU and slots that you needed for a given task. It's just the difficulty and the compromises that makes it rewarding to come up with a setup that works. It's not good trend to keep increasing the power of the player.

A new feature that so visually helps player avoid potential tactical mistake is not a good change. Good game design gives the players the tools to avoid the said mistake, but leaves it for the player himself to use or not use the tools.
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#37 - 2015-08-26 17:00:27 UTC
https://twitter.com/CCP_FoxFour/status/635770834494337024 \

Corbexx got back to me after sending this his way:)

THE DREAM IS REAL...
Vasama
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#38 - 2015-08-27 09:00:16 UTC
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:

"current way is better" .... what?


I've been thinking a matter a bit. And I have to agree that current way is kind of bad. Still I would prefer that over the currently shown new way due the grounds I have stated. The biggest issue is the graphical timer that is shown all the time over the WH. Maybe it could be made such a way that one would need to hover the mouse over the WH before it would show anything? Small active input from the player would be needed to check the time.

Vasama
BlakPhoenix
Load Up Blast Everything
DARKNESS.
#39 - 2015-08-28 03:03:47 UTC
I think people fail to realise that this information is already available in game. Clicking the "jump" button while polarised will give you an exact timer in a dialogue box. This change is purely cosmetic. Instead of clicking jump and then "ok" you can now just wait. Dialogue boxes are bad, streamlined UI is good.

Can't wait for this change!
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2015-08-29 20:29:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
I understand that the "polarization" is intended to slow solo chain collapsing of wormholes; in that regard it is probably a good idea (probably). The polarization itself is a effect that builds up in the ship .. and as such, it should be able to be measured and metered by a ship function (once pilots understand it). I have no problem with the idea. The mass and time to collapse of a hole in space, on the other hand, should never be broadcast to any player. Let's not mistake the two ideas. It's far better that they calculate a collapse timer on their own or "guess". This is not what they are talking about with a polarization info "wheel" by the way. Some have called for a popup with mass and time to collapse on it in the past.. which would be a game killing mechanic. Mystery = good for the game. Full disclosure in handy free info popups = not usually so good. (free intel in null sec local for example...)

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

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