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What would fix Null?
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#21 - 2015-08-27 03:39:42 UTC
James Cannon Fodder wrote:

I guess I don't really know how the mechanics would work.

It seems like there should be a tipping point where an alliance that reaches a certain size becomes a faction, and gets treated like a faction by Concord and the others.

Concord is a police force. In theory (although perhaps not in practice), it doesn't have the resources to get involved in interfaction battles. One reason why "factional warfare" even is allowed, right? (I haven't participated in it, so I'm not sure how it works exactly, though.)


Capsuleers don't control populations of trillions. Null worlds simply aren't developed.
So that's why capsuleers don't become factions, because they don't have the baseliners behind them to do so. Even if we have personal wealth we don't have all the other stuff that the Empires do.
James Cannon Fodder
Doomheim
#22 - 2015-08-27 03:50:46 UTC

Technically, we can start and manage colonies, but I see your point.


I guess we don't have a way to take actual control over an inhabited world. We can't even remove other players' colonies. So we're not really much of a threat that way.

How would a large player alliance compare with a faction like Guristas, though? Is that a fair comparison?
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#23 - 2015-08-27 04:03:08 UTC
James Cannon Fodder wrote:
d0cTeR9 wrote:
How about waiting for the new sov system to be up and running and then tweaked?

Oh and how about stop bitching and whining on the forums because your corporation of 10 can't do anything.


I just want to see the battles "mydingaling" was talking about.

I'm not in any corp or alliance right now. I haven't had time to dedicate any serious time to this game for a year now, getting maybe one day off a week (sometimes 13 day stretches between days off.)


Joining Goons is always an option. But a boring one. Joining a "corporation of 10 that can't do anything" is also an option. But also a boring one.

I want a not boring option.


Try going outside.

What, you wanted people to spoon feed you? It's human nature to kill a problem before it becomes a threat - which forms part of the issue at large.

The only correct thing you have alluded to is eve having a social problem compounded by poorly executed mechanics.
James Cannon Fodder
Doomheim
#24 - 2015-08-27 04:05:55 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
James Cannon Fodder wrote:


Try going outside.


I can do that without paying a monthly subscription.

Quote:



The only correct thing you have alluded to is eve having a social problem compounded by poorly executed mechanics.


Yeah. And I'd like to think that is enough to be worth discussing.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#25 - 2015-08-27 04:28:11 UTC
James Cannon Fodder wrote:
And I'd like to think that is enough to be worth discussing.

This is GD, the bar isn't that high.

But the rewards aren't high either...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
James Cannon Fodder
Doomheim
#26 - 2015-08-27 05:00:44 UTC

Lol. So now I need to structure the thread's game mechanics so there is more reward.

Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#27 - 2015-08-27 05:12:29 UTC
James Cannon Fodder wrote:
d0cTeR9 wrote:
How about waiting for the new sov system to be up and running and then tweaked?

Oh and how about stop bitching and whining on the forums because your corporation of 10 can't do anything.


I just want to see the battles "mydingaling" was talking about.

I'm not in any corp or alliance right now. I haven't had time to dedicate any serious time to this game for a year now, getting maybe one day off a week (sometimes 13 day stretches between days off.)


Joining Goons is always an option. But a boring one. Joining a "corporation of 10 that can't do anything" is also an option. But also a boring one.

I want a not boring option.

Have you ever considered so does CCP? They make a big deal of big battles, historically, just things from what I can tell are in a state of mess construction wise as this is some years in the coming and not an over night thing. They also take input on the changes, so cant be a bad thing compared to other games where they just don't care and worry more about the big whales. I think things will work out in time, provide battles yet still be lucrative for alliances to still prosper so to stage such battles. Posting special snowflake redundant threads rather than in the more official sov input threads, and by people not even engaged in sov, I think is a little odd.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
James Cannon Fodder
Doomheim
#28 - 2015-08-27 05:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: James Cannon Fodder
I used to operate in null. A long time ago when I had a sane job. I dont' know for sure what SOV even matters. The issue of having fleet battles is trying to get factions to a near enough equal size so the fight isn't a foregone conclusion before it even begins.




It seems the problem in need of a solution is that, once a certain fraction of the population has all joined the same faction, there is no longer anything to fight about.

At that point, they have effectively created a high sec outside of highsec. Only difference is the occasional interceptor or stealth bomber popping in to try and gank a mining barge.


Perhaps a true wildland is just an impossible ideal? Probably someone will set up a stable empire in WH space sometime soon too.
James Cannon Fodder
Doomheim
#29 - 2015-08-27 05:27:48 UTC
Webvan wrote:

Have you ever considered so does CCP?


I think they give it quite a lot of thought.

But neither they, nor anyone else, appears to have been able to come up with a way to keep things interesting.

I don't have any good ideas. I've been throwing out bad ideas on this thread just to see what the discussion brings. The input people have given has been helpful in illuminating this issue.

I think this is also a problem in real life politics. Things sometimes just get so stable they stagnate.
Josef Djugashvilis
#30 - 2015-08-27 05:28:38 UTC
Webvan wrote:
James Cannon Fodder wrote:
Why are there small gangs in Los Angeles? By your logic, shouldn't everyone be joining one giant super gang?
Wut? I grew up in LA. Your comment is just nuts. Those are some ruthless international gangs. Far more members than EVE's daily PCU, waay more. LA is a freaken sanctuary city, owned by illegals in massive gangs running guns, drugs, slaves and spreading contagious diseases while looting tax payers though state, local and federal handouts that corrupt politicians give 'em for their votes. ahh yet another null thread Roll


Donald Trump, is that you? Smile

This is not a signature.
James Cannon Fodder
Doomheim
#31 - 2015-08-27 05:57:37 UTC

So what about this possibility? :

I'm thinking about how things work in the mafia (as near as I understand it anyway - which may not be quite correct.) As I understand it, one mafia gang can declare war on another mafia gang, and still not be betraying the mafia leadership. So long as they don't attack anyone who's not involved, and don't harm the interests of those above them, they can kill one another, even though it means they are killing fellow mafia.


So now imagine if corporations in a big alliance could do that.

Suppose corporation A decides that corporation B is now going to be purple. A can shoot B. B can shoot A. However everyone else in the alliance is still blue to both A and B. A and B are still blue to everyone else in the alliance.

So now corporations within a big alliance like Goonswarm could have territorial battles, but not leave Goonswarm. Not be considered AWOX'ers.

That should create some chaos and disunity.
Tisiphone Dira
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-08-27 06:37:50 UTC
The manifesto I & II (by James 315) are important and clarifying documents that explain exactly why this stagnation of null has occured, the answer is in the now horribly skewed isk:reward ratios for the different types of space, particularly highsec, and the resultant disruption of the food chain, causing the collapse of the ecosystem.

There once was a ganker named tisi

A stunningly beautiful missy

To gank a gross miner

There is nothing finer, cept when they get all pissy
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#33 - 2015-08-27 06:48:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Webvan wrote:
James Cannon Fodder wrote:
Why are there small gangs in Los Angeles? By your logic, shouldn't everyone be joining one giant super gang?
Wut? I grew up in LA. Your comment is just nuts. Those are some ruthless international gangs. Far more members than EVE's daily PCU, waay more. LA is a freaken sanctuary city, owned by illegals in massive gangs running guns, drugs, slaves and spreading contagious diseases while looting tax payers though state, local and federal handouts that corrupt politicians give 'em for their votes. ahh yet another null thread Roll


Donald Trump, is that you? Smile

Wow, Hillery, long time no see! Hows it been hangin? Just remember, vote for me 2016, you won't regret it! ...if you flee the country Twisted
That Benghazi thing is going to catch up to you one day, biatch!
--
Smile

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#34 - 2015-08-27 06:50:04 UTC
Tisiphone Dira wrote:
Stuff I didn't read because of creepy ass avatar.
Dude! Your head.

Mr Epeen Cool
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#35 - 2015-08-27 06:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
There is no "fix" to nullsec. Nullsec is not "broken". It was a fire and it has burned for years, now it's all ashes and embers.

"But, how do I fix these ashes?"

You can't fix them, you silly. You just start another fire elsewhere.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
dor amwar
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2015-08-27 07:15:12 UTC  |  Edited by: dor amwar
mydingaling wrote:
Null is about big groups. Turning null into some faction warfare style little group thing is what has ****** null. In amongst the big groups and major wars you have little groups and skirmishes. This however changed with bubble immune ships and the rise of the uncatchable kiters.

The problem with null was stagnation. Lets be honest, the great wars fought from red moon rising through to dominion were the golden years of eve. I'm 42 and have gamed since the first computer games were invented. Eve online during that period was the greatest gaming i've ever been a part of and will likely never see again. The reason why most of us are complaining about the state of null is we can see the direction null is going and there will never be another time like that. I truly feel sorry for all you newbies that missed it.

There are a whole bunch of reasons for the stagnation. The biggest single reason is you no longer have the likes of Sir Mole to drive conflict. COAD really was a great conflict driver and the changes made there I think was the start of the end. Nowadays the passionate 'grrr kill goons' feeds recruits into the likes of MOA who are invulnerable as far as sov goes and can get their sweet revenge flying fast uncatachable ships around CFC space. You need the likes of MOA to instead be part of the bigger groups, tie the passion in with groups that can actually fight a proper sov war. If you look at the groups that if combined could bring that kind of fight, BL, PL, MOA all live in NPC protected stations. They are not true sov holders they have nothing to risk, nothing to fight for, no chance to rally up everyone to save their **** from burning to the ground.

You need the biggest isk rewards to be in null. You need the associated risk of losing your stuff as the balance for the reward. You shouldn't be able to just hide out conflict in a npc station. You shouldn't be able to make better money from other areas of eve. You need more varied PVE in null not just anomolies. Null should be dangerous and not filled with uncatchable little ****** ships.


thx for saving me some typing.
Tisiphone Dira
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-08-27 07:43:32 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Tisiphone Dira wrote:
Stuff I didn't read because of creepy ass avatar.
Dude! Your head.

Mr Epeen Cool


One of the many miracles of James 315

His perfect explanation of the problems of null years before the OP thought to even ask is another, what amazing foresight

There once was a ganker named tisi

A stunningly beautiful missy

To gank a gross miner

There is nothing finer, cept when they get all pissy
Josef Djugashvilis
#38 - 2015-08-27 08:11:35 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Webvan wrote:
James Cannon Fodder wrote:
Why are there small gangs in Los Angeles? By your logic, shouldn't everyone be joining one giant super gang?
Wut? I grew up in LA. Your comment is just nuts. Those are some ruthless international gangs. Far more members than EVE's daily PCU, waay more. LA is a freaken sanctuary city, owned by illegals in massive gangs running guns, drugs, slaves and spreading contagious diseases while looting tax payers though state, local and federal handouts that corrupt politicians give 'em for their votes. ahh yet another null thread Roll


Donald Trump, is that you? Smile

Wow, Hillery, long time no see! Hows it been hangin? Just remember, vote for me 2016, you won't regret it! ...if you flee the country Twisted
That Benghazi thing is going to catch up to you one day, biatch!
--
Smile


I am not an American nor do I live in the USA but I would love The Trump to win just for the sheer priceless comedy value Smile

This is not a signature.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#39 - 2015-08-27 08:12:36 UTC
Tisiphone Dira wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Tisiphone Dira wrote:
Stuff I didn't read because of creepy ass avatar.
Dude! Your head.

Mr Epeen Cool


One of the many miracles of James 315

His perfect explanation of the problems of null years before the OP thought to even ask is another, what amazing foresight

the power of christ compels you the power of christ compels you the poser of...

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Salvos Rhoska
#40 - 2015-08-27 09:33:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Dev blog goals quite clearly state that CCP is now designing away from big fleet battles.

The future will expectedly bring mechanics which attempt to incentivize smaller fleets engaging in multiple sov systems, simultaneously (with faster capture for a more dynamic turnover (vs more incentive for ownership increasing profits))..

Like it or not, and though it contradicts the old mantra of huge fleet battles, its pretty obvious from the dev blog goals that the paradigm is changing.

"Goal #3: Minimize the systemic pressure to bring more people or larger ships than would be required to simply defeat your enemies on the field of battle."

"Goal #6: Spread the largest Sovereignty battles over multiple star systems to take advantage of New Eden’s varied geography and to better manage server load."

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/politics-by-other-means/

The other goals peripherally support these two goals and explain how they intend to achieve them, towards a design decision to move away from large fleet battles.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
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