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The end of Hybrid buff
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Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#321 - 2011-12-30 23:13:38 UTC
Roime wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

Not for every situation, just as many as ACs and pulses cover....
as for why... why not? Since the other weapon systems aren´t restricted that way, why should Gallente be? I would like to use them more, just the niches they cover doesn´t really appeal to me for the most time. This wouldn´t be an issue if they were a full-fledged alternative to ACs and pulses.


Pulses and ACs don't cut it against blasters inside blaster range. This is the thing that has changed, pre-Crucible pulses were close (ACs never were but winmatards can't EFT), now there is a clear gap. If the niche does not appeal to you, that's cool, but it's nothing more than a personal preference.


Oh, that´s a misunderstanding, i´m not talking about whether blasters can put up a fight or not. I´m pretty much content with them in that regard. I am talking about the fact they are only really useful in situations where the fights begin on top of each other. For all camping scenarios that is fine, but for everything else... and i don´t like camping.
Also it scales up horribly. The more ships are involved in a fight the less useful blasters get. Small gangs is the maximum size where blasters can still be used, everything bigger and you are more or less spectator ...or dead (and therefore no one wants to use them there). I´m not that much into big fleetfights, but the solution for that would likely also solve the problem of using blasters in scenarios where both opponents are further apart at the beginning (and that is what i really want).

Right now you need a small gang -where the others are not blasterboats- for that. They can help you catching the opponent and aren´t many enough to kill the enemy before you arrive (and then you can contribute quite some dps). But arguably your contribution isn´t really worth the additional workload the others have to make up for your weaknesses in longer ranged fights and while it works, the performance of the gang would probably be better if you were using ACs or pulses (or if there would be finally a solution of using blasters in longer ranged fights -longer ranged means here still within the ranges where you use ACs or pulses, not long range turret ranges, thats another story about tracking, maybe fitting and alpha).

Roime wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
Frigates, Droneboats, Caps.... you are aware that the whole hybrid balancing thing is about medium and large hybrids and their hulls? And you could say that especially BCs and BS are the most important ship classes in eve, especially if you want to cover as much of pvp (and also pve) as possible.


No, I was not aware, and probably CCP wasn't either as the blaster frigs, Vexor, Ishtar and Domi were all buffed. Anyway I mentioned these and well-regarded caps because as a race Gallente has plenty of flexibilty and balance.

Quote:
And last but not least it´s something the devs want to achieve as well and are currently working on it, so it wouldn´t be wrong to make sure they get it right (well to discuss whether they got it right and how that might happen, to be more precise... it´s not like they are going to listen to usP).


I'm not disagreeing with the statement that lower tier BCs and large fleet BSs still need some balancing work, everybody agrees with that imo. Many lower tier BCs more or less suck, same goes for fleet battleships.

I also think CCP Tallest did very good work with Crucible and while this discussion is fun and all, he can finish the balancing even without our expert input :)


Well, small blasters were never an issue because all small turrets are more or less within close range and all ships are rather fast enough for making the differences in range no big deal.
As for drone boats, i might want to point out that drones also have some issues and rather need a revision (i´m looking at you, drone AI, that apparently stands for artificial idiocy).
Overall, i´m also quite happy with crucible.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#322 - 2011-12-31 03:26:12 UTC
Why would an arty/rail/beam sniper tier 3 battlecruiser need a point? You bring a Lachesis or Arazu and a gang of sniper BC's, prefs with a Huginn as well, and that's your gang.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#323 - 2011-12-31 06:07:41 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Rails now has +10% of very little dps, +5% of very little tracking. Blasters now has +0% of very little range. Gallante slowboats has +5% of very slow speed.

Did it occur to CCP that adding very little percentage of very little is still very little?Lol

If you're going to give +5% of something, make it 5% of AC range/dps, etc.



Start adding up all those LITTLE things up. And it ends up not being so little at all.



Exactly - implementing several huge buffs at once brought us the ridiculously overpowered projectiles we have now. Better to change things little by little.

I'm not saying Hybrids are fine yet - time will tell - but at least they're not flat out broken anymore.


I disagree. Because the attempted balancing goes completely into the wrong direction.
Gallente are not designed for close combat and sniping, in fact their design is from all the races the most incompatible with it, therefore continuing to force them into those roles will only result in failure.
This is why people can´t agree wether it´s the weapons or the hulls that needs changes and how exactly those changes should look like: they all presume Gallente has to fill these roles, but since they aren´t suited for it, there are no satisfactory solutions.



Well - Gallente used to fill these roles just fine years ago -they were just constantly nerfed indirectly whilst other got boosted:

- Changes to speed, webs, scrams and MWDs in QR finally broke them - everyone thought it would hit Minmatar the worst, but all in all, it turned out they were largely unaffected by the changes.
Every Blasterboat had an MWD and a web - kind of sucks to be Gallente when everyone can turn your propmod off way outside your optimal+falloff and your web is nerfed from 90 to 60% at the same time whilst base speed and agility is among the worst in the game.
- Not only were some Gallente ships heavily nerfed with the introduction of dronebandwidth (whatever sicko came up with the idea of 75 mbit/sec bandwidth for the myrm tortures little kitten in his basement), but also medium and heavy drones received multiple nerfs over the years, which again struck Gallente the worst.
- At the same time, Projectiles and tracking enhancers were buffed into oblivion which left autocannons better at being blasters than blasters themselves up close and the bonus of having insane falloff.
- Thanks to on-grid probing, sniping BS fleets died and the only long range system put to practical use are arties, thanks to their sick alpha. So yeah - rails are dead - just as beams.

When asking for better range for blasters, people constantly argued that then, they would be too akin to ACs - well - maybe CCP shouldn't have made ACs the better blasters in the first place.



Bitter bastards bashing blasters better beware.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#324 - 2012-01-03 11:45:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tara Read
Gabriel Karade wrote:
I really should dust off a Megathron sometime... Cool

That being said, I still think its worthwhile re-visiting ships and bonuses - get the 'doctrine' as a whole working properly from T1 down with everything fulfilling a role.



There should never be dust on a Megathron.... that's.. just painful man...

I revisited the forums only to find more crying and flailing about from people whom I can only assume

A. Cannot understand how to fly a Blaster Boat.

B. Their FC's keep playing FOTM so they won't LET them fly with Blasters.

C. Just want another Autocannon clone...

Anyone care to explain to me how I seem to get plenty of sufficient kills in a Megathron yet people here simply aren't happy? I mean Gallente in my opinion are the most versatile they've been (at least fitting wise) since I can remember.

I just think people are afraid to try something out of their own skin. I think alot of FC's are afraid as well seeing as nothing but the same old tired Drake/Cane fleets keep bouncing around null it really gets just downright boring...

How about you fly something that's I dunno FUN!? Isn't that the point? I HATE flying Drakes and I HATE flying Arty fit crap... it's so freaking BORING! Lets kite some more... Lets have another kite fest for 20 minutes and all shake hands after the fight from a distance....


Why don't you all grow a pair, man up, strap in a balls to the wall in your face **** storming vessel and have a blast? I know why... because K/D ratio and killboards are SOOO important right? Why don't you have designated tackle with armor rep support and face melt people?

It's really not that difficult... I mean here's the deal. I fly mostly a Megathron because it is FUN. I think it's the most badass ship in Eve for what I like to do, and I'm 126 and 6 since I moved back to Null... You just gotta know what your doing!

Or how about going toe to toe with a group of Mach's and taking two of those faction fit bastards with you doing top damage? I'd gladly trade a Mega for two Mach's anyday...

Here's something fun as well if you got a decent wallet size. And for the price the stats are really quiet impressive...

Slap in some low grade slaves, a +3% armor and hybrid turret damage implant.

Then strap yourself in a Navy Mega with this fitting:

Highs : x 7 neutron blaster cannon T2 (void, null ) x 1 Heavy Neut (named)

Mediums : Named Web, Scram, Heavy Cap injector, MWD

Lows x2 Imperial Navy EANM's, x1 Armor Explosive Hardner t2, x3 1600 rolled tungsten plates, x1 mag stab T2 x1 damage control T2

rigs : large trimark armor pump x3. Drones : Ogre T2/ light ECM drones.

now... here's the fun part.

DPS : 1245 with Ogre's.

EHP: 289k

60k RAW armor hit points.

resistance : EM 79% Thermic 70% Kinetic 70% Explosive 79%

Did I mention HEAVY NEUT with this baby as well?

I mean for the price it's a NASTY ship to fly... and a load of fun... I left out the medium module names since alot of people like making those shiny...

point being is Gallente is viable... just be smart. I dare you to ask your FC to make a blaster type fleet. or try one. I'm sure your enemies will be taken aback if you play your cards right...


The ONLY changes I would like to see to give Gallente that extra special niche is armor rig/ module penalties reduced.

And a web range bonus to be able to actually catch our target. You wanna get in point range? You risk being caught. I find it only natural for certain hulls that are blaster platforms to be able to have a chance at closing range in an effective manner.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#325 - 2012-01-03 12:04:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Tara Read wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
I really should dust off a Megathron sometime... Cool

That being said, I still think its worthwhile re-visiting ships and bonuses - get the 'doctrine' as a whole working properly from T1 down with everything fulfilling a role.



There should never be dust on a Megathron.... that's.. just painful man...

I revisited the forums only to find more crying and flailing about from people whom I can only assume

A. Cannot understand how to fly a Blaster Boat.

B. Their FC's keep playing FOTM so they won't LET them fly with Blasters.

C. Just want another Autocannon clone...

Anyone care to explain to me how I seem to get plenty of sufficient kills in a Megathron yet people here simply aren't happy? I mean Gallente in my opinion are the most versatile they've been (at least fitting wise) since I can remember.

I just think people are afraid to try something out of their own skin. I think alot of FC's are afraid as well seeing as nothing but the same old tired Drake/Cane fleets keep bouncing around null it really gets just downright boring...

How about you fly something that's I dunno FUN!? Isn't that the point? I HATE flying Drakes and I HATE flying Arty fit crap... it's so freaking BORING! Lets kite some more... Lets have another kite fest for 20 minutes and all shake hands after the fight from a distance....


Why don't you all grow a pair, man up, strap in a balls to the wall in your face **** storming vessel and have a blast? I know why... because K/D ratio and killboards are SOOO important right? Why don't you have designated tackle with armor rep support and face melt people?

It's really not that difficult... I mean here's the deal. I fly mostly a Megathron because it is FUN. I think it's the most badass ship in Eve for what I like to do, and I'm 126 and 6 since I moved back to Null... You just gotta know what your doing!

Or how about going toe to toe with a group of Mach's and taking two of those faction fit bastards with you doing top damage? I'd gladly trade a Mega for two Mach's anyday...

Here's something fun as well if you got a decent wallet size. And for the price the stats are really quiet impressive...

Slap in some low grade slaves, a +3% armor and hybrid turret damage implant.

Then strap yourself in a Navy Mega with this fitting:

Highs : x 7 neutron blaster cannon T2 (void, null ) x 1 Heavy Neut (named)

Mediums : Named Web, Scram, Heavy Cap injector, MWD

Lows x2 Imperial Navy EANM's, x1 Armor Explosive Hardner t2, x3 1600 rolled tungsten plates, x1 mag stab T2 x1 damage control T2

rigs : large trimark armor pump x3. Drones : Ogre T2/ light ECM drones.

now... here's the fun part.

DPS : 1245 with Ogre's.

EHP: 289k

60k RAW armor hit points.

resistance : EM 79% Thermic 70% Kinetic 70% Explosive 79%

Did I mention HEAVY NEUT with this baby as well?

I mean for the price it's a NASTY ship to fly... and a load of fun... I left out the medium module names since alot of people like making those shiny...

point being is Gallente is viable... just be smart. I dare you to ask your FC to make a blaster type fleet. or try one. I'm sure your enemies will be taken aback if you play your cards right...


The ONLY changes I would like to see to give Gallente that extra special niche is armor rig/ module penalties reduced.

And a web range bonus to be able to actually catch our target. You wanna get in point range? You risk being caught. I find it only natural for certain hulls that are blaster platforms to be able to have a chance at closing range in an effective manner.


Please tell me when you're going to spank the bad boys with your uber megathrons I'll bring free logistics for you (mine), what a bout meet in jita and go take a ride to VFK? -bees homeland, let's go there and hurt them with those nasty megathrons Lol

Edit: please be sure you can field HG Slaves and bring some ultra nasty Navy Mega (50? 100?), with faction fit eventually. Cool
ANd just for lols but you should train your skills after lvl3 heh, with T2 hammers and no implants I get IG fitting window 1345DPS with my fit Lol
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#326 - 2012-01-03 12:37:14 UTC
You know flying anything slower than a vaga into vfk is pretty stupid with 600 cfc active. I don't see how that has much bearing on what he's saying.

People are a bit quick to discount new ideas. Maybe a group of megas would make a decent gang these days. It's probably not optimal but it's definitely viable with the fitting, tracking and damage buff.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#327 - 2012-01-03 12:41:36 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
Tara Read wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
I really should dust off a Megathron sometime... Cool

That being said, I still think its worthwhile re-visiting ships and bonuses - get the 'doctrine' as a whole working properly from T1 down with everything fulfilling a role.



There should never be dust on a Megathron.... that's.. just painful man...

I revisited the forums only to find more crying and flailing about from people whom I can only assume

A. Cannot understand how to fly a Blaster Boat.

B. Their FC's keep playing FOTM so they won't LET them fly with Blasters.

C. Just want another Autocannon clone...

Anyone care to explain to me how I seem to get plenty of sufficient kills in a Megathron yet people here simply aren't happy? I mean Gallente in my opinion are the most versatile they've been (at least fitting wise) since I can remember.

I just think people are afraid to try something out of their own skin. I think alot of FC's are afraid as well seeing as nothing but the same old tired Drake/Cane fleets keep bouncing around null it really gets just downright boring...

How about you fly something that's I dunno FUN!? Isn't that the point? I HATE flying Drakes and I HATE flying Arty fit crap... it's so freaking BORING! Lets kite some more... Lets have another kite fest for 20 minutes and all shake hands after the fight from a distance....


Why don't you all grow a pair, man up, strap in a balls to the wall in your face **** storming vessel and have a blast? I know why... because K/D ratio and killboards are SOOO important right? Why don't you have designated tackle with armor rep support and face melt people?

It's really not that difficult... I mean here's the deal. I fly mostly a Megathron because it is FUN. I think it's the most badass ship in Eve for what I like to do, and I'm 126 and 6 since I moved back to Null... You just gotta know what your doing!

Or how about going toe to toe with a group of Mach's and taking two of those faction fit bastards with you doing top damage? I'd gladly trade a Mega for two Mach's anyday...

Here's something fun as well if you got a decent wallet size. And for the price the stats are really quiet impressive...

Slap in some low grade slaves, a +3% armor and hybrid turret damage implant.

Then strap yourself in a Navy Mega with this fitting:

Highs : x 7 neutron blaster cannon T2 (void, null ) x 1 Heavy Neut (named)

Mediums : Named Web, Scram, Heavy Cap injector, MWD

Lows x2 Imperial Navy EANM's, x1 Armor Explosive Hardner t2, x3 1600 rolled tungsten plates, x1 mag stab T2 x1 damage control T2

rigs : large trimark armor pump x3. Drones : Ogre T2/ light ECM drones.

now... here's the fun part.

DPS : 1245 with Ogre's.

EHP: 289k

60k RAW armor hit points.

resistance : EM 79% Thermic 70% Kinetic 70% Explosive 79%

Did I mention HEAVY NEUT with this baby as well?

I mean for the price it's a NASTY ship to fly... and a load of fun... I left out the medium module names since alot of people like making those shiny...

point being is Gallente is viable... just be smart. I dare you to ask your FC to make a blaster type fleet. or try one. I'm sure your enemies will be taken aback if you play your cards right...


The ONLY changes I would like to see to give Gallente that extra special niche is armor rig/ module penalties reduced.

And a web range bonus to be able to actually catch our target. You wanna get in point range? You risk being caught. I find it only natural for certain hulls that are blaster platforms to be able to have a chance at closing range in an effective manner.


Yes as far as i can see ANY ship in eve is vital for gate camping if the enemy is outnumbered and there are some pvp ships included within the mentioned camp.
Do not tell me this were no camps you lost the megathrons with 3 sebos in . Any loss with 3+ SEBO's ....
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#328 - 2012-01-03 12:51:30 UTC
thoth rothschild wrote:
Yes as far as i can see ANY ship in eve is vital for gate camping if the enemy is outnumbered and there are some pvp ships included within the mentioned camp.
Do not tell me this were no camps. Any loss with 3+ SEBO's ....


It's not like if Amar/Minmatar or even Caldari ships couldn't gate camp over the fact they are also useful in fleets of all sizes Lol
Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#329 - 2012-01-03 13:14:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Kingwood
Tanya Powers wrote:
thoth rothschild wrote:
Yes as far as i can see ANY ship in eve is vital for gate camping if the enemy is outnumbered and there are some pvp ships included within the mentioned camp.
Do not tell me this were no camps. Any loss with 3+ SEBO's ....


It's not like if Amar/Minmatar or even Caldari ships couldn't gate camp over the fact they are also useful in fleets of all sizes Lol


So are Gallente, if shield-tanked. L2p etc. etc.

Edit: This is regarding solo and small-gang PvP. In large fleets it doesn't really matter what you bring, as long as you can hit out to range, i.e. Rails.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#330 - 2012-01-03 13:16:18 UTC
They can but why should i use a Ford if i can use a porsche ?
Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#331 - 2012-01-03 13:20:48 UTC
thoth rothschild wrote:
They can but why should i use a Ford if i can use a porsche ?


Because shield tanked blaster boats perform very well. You should take a look at Deimos vs. Vaga, or Talos vs. Tornado.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#332 - 2012-01-03 13:28:19 UTC
They lack something. Namely support

Shield tanked Brutix has 0 free High slots, 0 free med slots for any kind of support. No neutralizers, No e-war.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#333 - 2012-01-03 15:22:23 UTC
oh god, another one of these threads

Blasters are good, individual Gallente ships could still use some tweaking. Re-work the bonuses on ships like the Brutix/Hype, and the fittings on ships like the Deimos, and you're all set.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#334 - 2012-01-03 15:24:14 UTC
thoth rothschild wrote:
They lack something. Namely support

Shield tanked Brutix has 0 free High slots, 0 free med slots for any kind of support. No neutralizers, No e-war.



How is this different from a shield tanked Vaga, or a shield tanked Drake, or basically a shield tanked anything? (Okay, you can argue that the Vaga has a neut which the Brutix doesn't, but the Brutix gets more dronespace)
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#335 - 2012-01-03 16:02:07 UTC
Roosterton wrote:
thoth rothschild wrote:
They lack something. Namely support

Shield tanked Brutix has 0 free High slots, 0 free med slots for any kind of support. No neutralizers, No e-war.



How is this different from a shield tanked Vaga, or a shield tanked Drake, or basically a shield tanked anything? (Okay, you can argue that the Vaga has a neut which the Brutix doesn't, but the Brutix gets more dronespace)

you are dumb as always... nothing new this year :(
Wog Cyllen
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#336 - 2012-01-03 17:34:27 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:

you are dumb as always... nothing new this year :(


Hah, Naomi Knight, the epitome of stupid, potentially the dumbest person on the planet, calling someone else dumb. Oh the irony (not that Naomi would see it, of course).
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#337 - 2012-01-03 17:55:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Roosterton wrote:
thoth rothschild wrote:
They lack something. Namely support

Shield tanked Brutix has 0 free High slots, 0 free med slots for any kind of support. No neutralizers, No e-war.



How is this different from a shield tanked Vaga, or a shield tanked Drake, or basically a shield tanked anything? (Okay, you can argue that the Vaga has a neut which the Brutix doesn't, but the Brutix gets more dronespace)


The flexibility for more DPS or more utility has always been there - people just don't feel that they're allowed to take advantage of it. As for me, if they gave the Brutix another high+turret slot I'd almost certainly put a turret in it most of the time. :)

Roosterton wrote:
oh god, another one of these threads

Blasters are good, individual Gallente ships could still use some tweaking. Re-work the bonuses on ships like the Brutix/Hype, and the fittings on ships like the Deimos, and you're all set.


Rework the Brutix, sure, but the Hype is actually really good. :(

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#338 - 2012-01-03 18:00:57 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


Rework the Brutix, sure, but the Hype is actually really good. :(

-Liang



Very much this.

The hype is one of the more underrated hulls.
Goose99
#339 - 2012-01-03 18:05:43 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


Rework the Brutix, sure, but the Hype is actually really good. :(

-Liang



Very much this.

The hype is one of the more underrated hulls.


Yes, Hype is clearly on par with Mael and Abaddon.Lol
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#340 - 2012-01-03 18:10:10 UTC
Depends on what you are doing with it.

Its NOT a fleet hull, it can't be with that slot layout on reliance on blasters. Its a MEAN somebitch when you put it in a small gang environment. Something that the Baddon and Mael suck at.