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[Galatea] First batch of sov capture iterations

First post First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1141 - 2015-08-25 19:19:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Lucas Kell wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:

Unfortunately for you, ceptors are the only way to cause you some headache.
Wrong. They're not even the best way to give me some headache.


Confirming Lucas is correct, I'm the best way to give him a headache. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

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Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1142 - 2015-08-25 21:41:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The patch you downloaded with a change specifically aimed at nerfing trollcepers and their t3 counterparts isnt enough for you?

Of course not.
Aside from the obvious fact that it doesn't state the reason for these changes, it's obvious that CCP routinely catered to gewn tears without sufficient analysis, like it did many times before.
So I'm all for asking for a reason to this patch before it's even a candidate for needed citation.

baltec1 wrote:
Simple, you build them with the goal of evasion not combat.

Unfortunately this is not the case where mechanics permit evasion. Since you ignored the question, I have to assume typical goon bs. You can still give a legit explanation to break that assumption, but until you do, it stands.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1143 - 2015-08-25 21:59:10 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
On the off chance that ccp dudes are still reading this and care for more feedback, I'll post some thoughts on the current sov system.


The core sov system is, fundamentally, not bad. Structure shoots are gone, which is good. Capital fleets crisscrossing the entire map in 5 minutes is no longer a thing, which is good. Smaller groups have, at least briefly, been able to take sov in areas of unused space, which is good. With structure shoots gone, taking undefended space is much faster, which makes sense.

There are however, some issues. Sov used to be the domain of 200+ man cruiser, T3, Capital, BS, and BC fights. I enjoyed many of those fights - those fights which are becoming increasingly rare. Now it's the domain of Ceptors and T3D's.

The problem isn't that I can't catch ceptors, I can with some success using remote sebos and the like. The problem is that hunting trollceptors all day long gets stale, fast. It's tedious low risk combat. If I wanted that, I'd go to fac war - it pays better. Hell, most of the time it isn't even combat - most trollceptors don't shoot back.


The entosis link has fundamentally shifted core sov doctrines away from cruisers, battleships, and capitals to interceptors and T3 destroyers. This is bad. Very many low risk frigate fights lead to tedium. The content I was getting pre-aegis (100 man cruiser fights against reavers) was more engaging then the content I'm getting now. This is bad. We already have an arena for many low risk fights - fac war. Why do we need a second fac war? And where do the people that like 200 man cruiser fights go for their content?

Fortunately, there are knobs that can be turned in this system. One knob is ship speed. Taking sov should require a commitment of ships to a particular grid. You try to take a sov node? You take it or you lose your ship. No middle ground.

To that end, I would suggest reducing max velocity of entosis ships to somewhere around 1000 m/s - this is afterburner frigate speed, and I believe it to be entirely reasonable. Better still would be to set speed to 0 m/s ala cynos - that way you'd have to (god forbid) bring a support fleet to take sov, but I don't think you'll go for that.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1144 - 2015-08-25 22:13:02 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Orca Platypus wrote:

Of course not.
Aside from the obvious fact that it doesn't state the reason for these changes, it's obvious that CCP routinely catered to gewn tears without sufficient analysis, like it did many times before.
So I'm all for asking for a reason to this patch before it's even a candidate for needed citation.


They also confirmed it on the meta show, grudgingly.

Orca Platypus wrote:

Unfortunately this is not the case where mechanics permit evasion. Since you ignored the question, I have to assume typical goon bs. You can still give a legit explanation to break that assumption, but until you do, it stands.


So despite stating over and over you are having fun with trollcepters you don't know how to fit one?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1145 - 2015-08-25 22:42:50 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:


baltec1 wrote:
Simple, you build them with the goal of evasion not combat.


Unfortunately this is not the case where mechanics permit evasion. Since you ignored the question, I have to assume typical goon bs. You can still give a legit explanation to break that assumption, but until you do, it stands.



You know, goons are not among the wiesest and brighest of eve, and I do not like them, but you know who has even less sttus to talk about what is right or wrong? Pator tech school.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1146 - 2015-08-25 23:03:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
So despite stating over and over you are having fun with trollcepters you don't know how to fit one?

Who is dumb enough to do that in a place where it might cause them to not be able to trollceptor in the future?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Shun Makoto
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1147 - 2015-08-26 00:34:11 UTC
If you want examples of how this Sov Mechanic is being used just look to Providence. 50+ man trollceptor fleets rolling around capturing everything in sight. I logged in today with 355 notifications about captured services. Within 3-5 hours I had at least another 100.

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Kystraz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1148 - 2015-08-26 02:41:18 UTC
Shun Makoto wrote:
If you want examples of how this Sov Mechanic is being used just look to Providence. 50+ man trollceptor fleets rolling around capturing everything in sight. I logged in today with 355 notifications about captured services. Within 3-5 hours I had at least another 100.


Would you say that this is enjoyable and fascinating for all the players involved?
bigbillthaboss3
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1149 - 2015-08-26 02:42:03 UTC
Shun Makoto wrote:
If you want examples of how this Sov Mechanic is being used just look to Providence. 50+ man trollceptor fleets rolling around capturing everything in sight. I logged in today with 355 notifications about captured services. Within 3-5 hours I had at least another 100.


Well, we tried to warn everyone about this.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1150 - 2015-08-26 05:59:31 UTC
And again: In this particular case, where is the difference between 100 Trollceptors and 100 Cruisers or BC? As long as players (and one group in particular) have nothing better to do than to exhaust mechanics to the extreme, the situation itself is not going to change.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1151 - 2015-08-26 06:00:47 UTC
Shun Makoto wrote:
If you want examples of how this Sov Mechanic is being used just look to Providence. 50+ man trollceptor fleets rolling around capturing everything in sight. I logged in today with 355 notifications about captured services. Within 3-5 hours I had at least another 100.


The Cancer of New Eden will do cancerous things. No sane people that want the game to survive would ever do the things Goons are so proud off.

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Kystraz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1152 - 2015-08-26 06:13:26 UTC
100 cruisers or battlecruisers leads to a fight that is interesting and enjoyable for all players involved.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1153 - 2015-08-26 06:25:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
In dozens of systems at the same time? Easily relocatable into 200, 300 people, crushing on a defending fleet? So back to Tidi fights that everyone loved so much prior to Aegis. Or cruisers that are specifically fitted to evade fights and kill ceptors that try to intercept?
You also do realize that people are already and still doing this, right?

You don't want to see that numbers are going to ruin every single mechanic CCP puts out in the wild, do you?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Tactical Farmers
#1154 - 2015-08-26 06:36:18 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

You don't want to see that numbers are going to ruin every single mechanic CCP puts out in the wild, do you?

well, CCP could introduce arenas, so that it's always 1 v 1 and whoever wins - gets the structure
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1155 - 2015-08-26 06:44:23 UTC
Has there been any discussion or even mention of chamging the vulnerability window to not only be for a single TZ?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1156 - 2015-08-26 06:45:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
@Warmeister
What a fantastic suggestion. More mechanics to take away initiative from the players to see and correct their own failures (or at least look ridiculous when they complain about them).

@FT Diomedes
What would that solve? Make you as a single-TZ entity in Null sec vulnerable in 2 windows out of which one you can potentially not defend your stuff in?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1157 - 2015-08-26 07:16:38 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
And again: In this particular case, where is the difference between 100 Trollceptors and 100 Cruisers or BC? As long as players (and one group in particular) have nothing better to do than to exhaust mechanics to the extreme, the situation itself is not going to change.
Interceptors can easily blast through gatecamps and bubbles, able to have their own bubbles deployed on grid to cause defenders who aren't in interceptors problems. BCs cannot.

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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1158 - 2015-08-26 07:21:16 UTC
Which is a problem in itself if you can screw an entire gate grid with several dozens of large bubbles for hundreds of kilometers and completely immobilized such a group.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1159 - 2015-08-26 07:25:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:

Of course not.
Aside from the obvious fact that it doesn't state the reason for these changes, it's obvious that CCP routinely catered to gewn tears without sufficient analysis, like it did many times before.
So I'm all for asking for a reason to this patch before it's even a candidate for needed citation.


They also confirmed it on the meta show, grudgingly.

Citation needed.

baltec1 wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:

Unfortunately this is not the case where mechanics permit evasion. Since you ignored the question, I have to assume typical goon bs. You can still give a legit explanation to break that assumption, but until you do, it stands.


So despite stating over and over you are having fun with trollcepters you don't know how to fit one?

So despite being stated at least twice that was about evasion built T3 nullified cruisers you still gewned and demonstrated typical reading comprehension failure in attempting to switch the context back to trollceptors?

Kagura Nikon wrote:
You know, goons are not among the wiesest and brighest of eve, and I do not like them, but you know who has even less sttus to talk about what is right or wrong? Pator tech school.

ad gewnminem at its finest.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1160 - 2015-08-26 07:27:25 UTC
Shun Makoto wrote:
If you want examples of how this Sov Mechanic is being used just look to Providence. 50+ man trollceptor fleets rolling around capturing everything in sight. I logged in today with 355 notifications about captured services. Within 3-5 hours I had at least another 100.


Being outnumbered at least 1 to 5 had nothing to do with it *sarcasm*.