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Crime & Punishment

 
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Why High Sec Gankers?

First post
Author
Black Pedro
Mine.
#121 - 2015-08-25 06:51:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Avvy wrote:
Find it hard to believe suicide ganking was originally intended, seems more like a side effect of something else that they decided to leave as it is.
Well if you mean that 100% ship-loss was not guaranteed in the beginning you are correct. Originally CONCORD was tankable and avoidable and nowhere near as overpowering as they are now. GM's used to play the game as CONCORD ships and battle players even. Highsec was much more dangerous back then.

But the core idea was there from the beginning - a reactionary NPC police force that would provide consequences for unwarranted aggression. This is how the developers chose to keep player-driven risk in highsec while providing some deterrence to pirates operating there. Over the years the police have been buffed to the point where now such an attack really is "suicide" as CONCORD is so powerful, but the core mechanic is still original one intended by the designers. As Jonah said, the game was designed around players killing and "griefing" each other and the "nowhere is safe" design philosophy is a result of that.

Regardless if suicide ganking was a little more survivable in the beginning, the main point is that nothing is "broken" as the current intention of CCP is that suicide gankers serve as a risk mechanism in highsec. You don't have to go far (pg. 59, here) to find the developers confirming this. It is working as intended.

Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
This kind of thinking makes me laugh every time I see it from one of you lot. What you do requires neither skill or intelligence. You pay a couple of extra accounts to shield yourself from consequences and streamline the process and then you shoot things that don't move or shoot back. The incursion runners you decry so much are more worthy of respect
I don't play this game to earn your respect. I am not interested in your space honour or your biased estimation of which activities are hard or require more skill. I play the game as it was originally designed, as a villain serving as one of the main sources of risk in highsec - I find that satisfying and fun. The game is better off that players like me choose to hunt players in highsec, forcing them to spend time and effort to protect themselves, and put them under pressure to fit their ships for defense rather than pure yield.

The risk of suicide gankers is the only thing that makes highsec a part of this competitive sandbox. In fact, without that risk, the game would not function as a unified PvP sandbox.

Certainly, hunting and ganking miners and haulers requires more effort and has more inherent risk than highsec mining or hauling, and even the push-button completely min-maxed state of the current incursion farms, all things you can do while watching a movie on another screen while printing ISK. In fact, here's a good yardstick for you: any activity where you can watch Netflix while you "play" Eve is not worthy of one's respect. It's absurd that such low-attention play is even possible in a full-time PvP sandbox game. The risk of ganking is only thing countering it.

In any case, heap your scorn on me - that is part of the job of a highsec villain - but I will keep serving as an agent of risk and playing the game as the designers intend. So, would you like to buy a permit?
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2015-08-25 07:07:31 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Find it hard to believe suicide ganking was originally intended, seems more like a side effect of something else that they decided to leave as it is.
Well if you mean that 100% ship-loss was not guaranteed in the beginning you are correct. Originally CONCORD was tankable and avoidable and nowhere near as overpowering as they are now. GM's used to play the game as CONCORD ships and battle players even. Highsec was much more dangerous back then.

But the core idea was there from the beginning - a reactionary NPC police force that would provide consequences for unwarranted aggression. This is how the developers choose to keep player-driven risk in highsec while providing some deterrence to pirates operating there. Over the years the police have been buffed to the point where now such an attack really is "suicide" as CONCORD is so powerful, but the core mechanic is still original one intended by the designers. As Jonah said, the game was designed around players killing and "griefing" each other and the "nowhere is safe" design philosophy is a result of that.

Regardless if suicide ganking was a little more survivable in the beginning, the main point is that nothing is "broken" as the current intention of CCP is that suicide gankers serve as a risk mechanism in highsec. You don't have to go far (pg. 59, here) to find the developers confirming this. It is working as intended.

Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
This kind of thinking makes me laugh every time I see it from one of you lot. What you do requires neither skill or intelligence. You pay a couple of extra accounts to shield yourself from consequences and streamline the process and then you shoot things that don't move or shoot back. The incursion runners you decry so much are more worthy of respect
I don't play this game to earn your respect. I am not interested in your space honour or your biased estimation of which activities are hard or require more skill. I play the game as it was originally designed, as a villain serving as one of the main sources of risk in highsec - I find that satisfying and fun. The game is better off that players like me choose to hunt players in highsec, forcing them to spend time and effort to protect themselves, and put them under pressure to fit their ships for defense rather than pure yield.

The risk of suicide gankers is the only thing that makes highsec a part of this competitive sandbox. In fact, without that risk, the game would not function as a unified PvP sandbox.

Certainly, hunting and ganking miners and haulers requires more effort and has more inherent risk than highsec mining or hauling, and even the push-button completed min-maxed state of the current incursion farms, all things you can do while watching a movie on another screen while printing ISK. In fact, here's a good yardstick for you: any activity where you can watch Netflix while you "play" Eve is not worthy of one's respect. It's absurd that such low-attention play is even possible in a full-time PvP sandbox game. The risk ganking is only thing countering it.

In any case, heap your scorn on me - that is part of the job of a highsec villain - but I will keep serving as an agent of risk and playing the game as the designers intend. So. would you like to buy a permit?



I agree that ganking is a good thing. It creates content and introduces some risk for people doing really stupid things.

That doesn't change the fact that it is the easiest form of PvP in the game. I can log on and spend 5 minutes checking the nearest .5 systems for someone mining in a retriever, then drop a meta fit catalyst on it. I've done it once, just to see what all the fuss was about. I sat next to the guy for 5 minutes yellow boxing him in a catalyst before I opened fire; he didn't move. Traded a 2M ISK ship for one worth 30M. Easier than ratting. How people can do it day after day I will never understand.




Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#123 - 2015-08-25 07:31:12 UTC
Meloddy Sev wrote:
I'm not impressed by a group of thugs who are clearly afraid to fight actual war ships, only pathetic mining barges...

Then why did you start a fight in a mining vessel?
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#124 - 2015-08-25 07:40:18 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
That doesn't change the fact that it is the easiest form of PvP in the game. I can log on and spend 5 minutes checking the nearest .5 systems for someone mining in a retriever, then drop a meta fit catalyst on it. I've done it once, just to see what all the fuss was about. I sat next to the guy for 5 minutes yellow boxing him in a catalyst before I opened fire; he didn't move. Traded a 2M ISK ship for one worth 30M. Easier than ratting. How people can do it day after day I will never understand.

I could explain it to you but since you already said that you will never understand I will go with the following answer: I personally do it because of the satisfaction I get from making someone cry over his pixel spaceship. Is that too radical for you?
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri
Dreamweb Industries
Novus Ordo.
#125 - 2015-08-25 11:00:55 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
I agree that ganking is a good thing. It creates content and introduces some risk for people doing really stupid things.

That doesn't change the fact that it is the easiest form of PvP in the game. I can log on and spend 5 minutes checking the nearest .5 systems for someone mining in a retriever, then drop a meta fit catalyst on it. I've done it once, just to see what all the fuss was about. I sat next to the guy for 5 minutes yellow boxing him in a catalyst before I opened fire; he didn't move. Traded a 2M ISK ship for one worth 30M. Easier than ratting. How people can do it day after day I will never understand.


If we go on following your logic, we can judge, let's say, all lowsec PvP by blapping a novice FW bear with a Hawk. It's the same routine: MWD, orbit, lock, disrupt, F1, target down. Not much in terms of resistance, either. But, if you look a tad deeper into the rabbit hole, you'll see tanky miner ganking, autopiloter ganking, hauler ganking, mission runner ganking, unlucky incursion runner ganking, freigher ganking, white knight gaanking, and, finally, hyperdunking. If all listed above is as easy as ganking untanked Rets, go ahead - grab another meta-fit Catalyst and shovel ISK and juicy killmails all by yourself.

You may enjoy challenge and risk, but if you found yourself sitting near a helpless FW bear in a Hawk, would you make the move "just because"? I know I would.

Agent of the New Order

Live by the Code - die by the Code.

The Voice of Highsec

Bellatrix Invicta
Doomheim
#126 - 2015-08-25 13:35:00 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
This kind of thinking makes me laugh every time I see it from one of you lot. What you do requires neither skill or intelligence. You pay a couple of extra accounts to shield yourself from consequences and streamline the process and then you shoot things that don't move or shoot back. The incursion runners you decry so much are more worthy of respect.


I have the one account. I am FAR more intelligent than you even realize. The consequences cannot be mititgated; my ship is destroyed 100% of the time. I shoot things that shoot back. Incursion runners are worthy of absolutely nothing other than shiny killmails.



The first loss on your kb was an attempted retriever gank with an Atron. A for effort; I guess you were still waiting on Gallente Destroyer skills.

Post with your main or gtfo. Or does that rule not apply to CODE?


This is my main.


You're lying, but no point arguing the matter.


Don't tell me what I'm doing. You do not have that right. The skillqueue is active on this toon and I have one other.

This is my main.

If you think you've won, think again.

The CODE always wins.

Nalia White
Tencus
#127 - 2015-08-25 17:24:02 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
That doesn't change the fact that it is the easiest form of PvP in the game. I can log on and spend 5 minutes checking the nearest .5 systems for someone mining in a retriever, then drop a meta fit catalyst on it. I've done it once, just to see what all the fuss was about. I sat next to the guy for 5 minutes yellow boxing him in a catalyst before I opened fire; he didn't move. Traded a 2M ISK ship for one worth 30M. Easier than ratting. How people can do it day after day I will never understand.

I could explain it to you but since you already said that you will never understand I will go with the following answer: I personally do it because of the satisfaction I get from making someone cry over his pixel spaceship. Is that too radical for you?


and that is probably why people are calling you guys psychopaths and for me personaly it has some merit. I am a WAAC player (win at all cost) but as in other games when your goal is to just grief people (no ingame goals or profits, just to **** on other people) that's psychopathic as it stands in the books :)

could never understand how one can take pleasure from another beeings misery but this world is crazy, CRAZY I TELL YA!

Syndicate - K5-JRD

Home to few, graveyard for many

My biggest achievement

Bellatrix Invicta
Doomheim
#128 - 2015-08-25 18:13:10 UTC
Nalia White wrote:
and that is probably why people are calling you guys psychopaths and for me personaly it has some merit. I am a WAAC player (win at all cost) but as in other games when your goal is to just grief people (no ingame goals or profits, just to **** on other people) that's psychopathic as it stands in the books :)

could never understand how one can take pleasure from another beeings misery but this world is crazy, CRAZY I TELL YA!


You need to learn what psychopathy is and take a college course in Psychology before you can make any statement like that. You need to learn to seperate EvE Online from your outside EvE Online existence.

If you think you've won, think again.

The CODE always wins.

Nalia White
Tencus
#129 - 2015-08-25 20:07:34 UTC
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
Nalia White wrote:
and that is probably why people are calling you guys psychopaths and for me personaly it has some merit. I am a WAAC player (win at all cost) but as in other games when your goal is to just grief people (no ingame goals or profits, just to **** on other people) that's psychopathic as it stands in the books :)

could never understand how one can take pleasure from another beeings misery but this world is crazy, CRAZY I TELL YA!


You need to learn what psychopathy is and take a college course in Psychology before you can make any statement like that. You need to learn to seperate EvE Online from your outside EvE Online existence.


here goes the full circle. however you wanna call it. to take pleasure in someone elses misery is the thing i can't cope with personaly. call it what you will. it's fine in this game though as the rules allow it. what i find funny is how those people defend this attitude they have as normal behaviour.

but this discussion is as old as full loot games themself i think. even in other games some people always try to take a dump on another players pie... i admit, sometimes it's quite hillarious but sometimes it's just eroticalevels of bad and mean...

Syndicate - K5-JRD

Home to few, graveyard for many

My biggest achievement

Renard Solo
Sublimation inc
#130 - 2015-08-25 20:21:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Renard Solo
Having read so so many of these posts let me put forward a reasonable point of view. High sec is not meant to be totally safe. If these gankers are willing to spend isk and time and take being concordukened into bits that's part of how the game is designed.

Is it a pain at times? Yes. Do I find it exiting having to pay attention every time im off doing something? Totally yes. Fact is if you pay attention you can avoid most attempts, I certainly have cause I run as soon as I see something off lol. I find it fun, its also how eve was designed.

High sec ganking will always be here, part of the game is learning how to deal with it and make it as difficult as possible for the gankers. It actually makes the game more fun.

Remember trust nobody, ever, at all, at any time. Nearly everyone is out to get you some way and its fun Lol
Bellatrix Invicta
Doomheim
#131 - 2015-08-25 20:32:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Bellatrix Invicta
Nalia White wrote:
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
Nalia White wrote:
and that is probably why people are calling you guys psychopaths and for me personaly it has some merit. I am a WAAC player (win at all cost) but as in other games when your goal is to just grief people (no ingame goals or profits, just to **** on other people) that's psychopathic as it stands in the books :)

could never understand how one can take pleasure from another beeings misery but this world is crazy, CRAZY I TELL YA!


You need to learn what psychopathy is and take a college course in Psychology before you can make any statement like that. You need to learn to seperate EvE Online from your outside EvE Online existence.


here goes the full circle. however you wanna call it. to take pleasure in someone elses misery is the thing i can't cope with personaly. call it what you will. it's fine in this game though as the rules allow it. what i find funny is how those people defend this attitude they have as normal behaviour.

but this discussion is as old as full loot games themself i think. even in other games some people always try to take a dump on another players pie... i admit, sometimes it's quite hillarious but sometimes it's just eroticalevels of bad and mean...


Your premise is that my pleasure is derived from your displeasure.

You are wrong.

My pleasure derives from making spaceships into spacewrecks and looting the goodies inside. Full stop. It just happens that I like the highsec law enforcement lifestyle so I stay in highsec.

Quit equating my actions in game to something outside of the game. The two do NOT correllate.

P.S. - if "misery" is really the word you're going for here, back up, calm down, take a walk and realize you are miserable over a game.

If you think you've won, think again.

The CODE always wins.

Nalia White
Tencus
#132 - 2015-08-25 20:43:45 UTC
first off i am sorry if you feel offended by my post. it was not directed at you and all of code but to the players like the one i quoted in my first post :)

second. i am talking not about myself as i live in npc null for years now and never even saw someone from code i think. but as an empathic person and hearing soundcloud stuff and reading stuff from other players i can imagine how it can feel. i kill a lot of stuff too and a lot of people get upside by this but usualy when you talk to them you can calm em down and have a good talk and give em tips. of course there are the people who will insult you in every way they can but you just ignore them.

all in all i like to read your stories too as you make the game interesting. i just think that the additional doses of salt in the wounds in form of smacktalk / talking down to people is not needed.

Syndicate - K5-JRD

Home to few, graveyard for many

My biggest achievement

Lady Areola Fappington
#133 - 2015-08-25 20:54:51 UTC
Renard Solo wrote:
Having read so so many of these posts let me put forward a reasonable point of view. High sec is not meant to be totally safe. If these gankers are willing to spend isk and time and take being concordukened into bits that's part of how the game is designed.

Is it a pain at times? Yes. Do I find it exiting having to pay attention every time im off doing something? Totally yes. Fact is if you pay attention you can avoid most attempts, I certainly have cause I run as soon as I see something off lol. I find it fun, its also how eve was designed.

High sec ganking will always be here, part of the game is learning how to deal with it and make it as difficult as possible for the gankers. It actually makes the game more fun.

Remember trust nobody, ever, at all, at any time. Nearly everyone is out to get you some way and its fun Lol



The best way to explain highsec, I've found, is like this. Highsec is like living in any First-World suburb. It's safe, for the most part, because a combination of social pressures and enforcement measures by the authorities keep the vast majority of violent crime away.

On the flip side, it's not TOTALLY safe, as anyone who watches the news can attest. Bad things CAN happen in highsec, much like bad things CAN happen in suburbia. Likely to happen, not really, but there's a chance.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#134 - 2015-08-25 21:34:18 UTC
As someone who spends some time manufacturing ships/seeding markets, I absolutely love gankers.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#135 - 2015-08-25 22:37:01 UTC
Nalia White wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
That doesn't change the fact that it is the easiest form of PvP in the game. I can log on and spend 5 minutes checking the nearest .5 systems for someone mining in a retriever, then drop a meta fit catalyst on it. I've done it once, just to see what all the fuss was about. I sat next to the guy for 5 minutes yellow boxing him in a catalyst before I opened fire; he didn't move. Traded a 2M ISK ship for one worth 30M. Easier than ratting. How people can do it day after day I will never understand.

I could explain it to you but since you already said that you will never understand I will go with the following answer: I personally do it because of the satisfaction I get from making someone cry over his pixel spaceship. Is that too radical for you?


and that is probably why people are calling you guys psychopaths and for me personaly it has some merit. I am a WAAC player (win at all cost) but as in other games when your goal is to just grief people (no ingame goals or profits, just to **** on other people) that's psychopathic as it stands in the books :)

could never understand how one can take pleasure from another beeings misery but this world is crazy, CRAZY I TELL YA!

What can I say... I specialy like the hearth shattering tears of those rare miners who leveled their Hulk with super expensive mods. It just has to hurt if the work of months gets turned into dust in seconds.

I know, this is sick.... It's almost like I think this is some kind of game or something...
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2015-08-26 02:59:26 UTC
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
I agree that ganking is a good thing. It creates content and introduces some risk for people doing really stupid things.

That doesn't change the fact that it is the easiest form of PvP in the game. I can log on and spend 5 minutes checking the nearest .5 systems for someone mining in a retriever, then drop a meta fit catalyst on it. I've done it once, just to see what all the fuss was about. I sat next to the guy for 5 minutes yellow boxing him in a catalyst before I opened fire; he didn't move. Traded a 2M ISK ship for one worth 30M. Easier than ratting. How people can do it day after day I will never understand.


If we go on following your logic, we can judge, let's say, all lowsec PvP by blapping a novice FW bear with a Hawk. It's the same routine: MWD, orbit, lock, disrupt, F1, target down. Not much in terms of resistance, either. But, if you look a tad deeper into the rabbit hole, you'll see tanky miner ganking, autopiloter ganking, hauler ganking, mission runner ganking, unlucky incursion runner ganking, freigher ganking, white knight gaanking, and, finally, hyperdunking. If all listed above is as easy as ganking untanked Rets, go ahead - grab another meta-fit Catalyst and shovel ISK and juicy killmails all by yourself.

You may enjoy challenge and risk, but if you found yourself sitting near a helpless FW bear in a Hawk, would you make the move "just because"? I know I would.


If I could multibox a hauler alt I probably would gank for profit. But there's not much point of you can't grab the loot immediately, unless you are in it purely for the tears, which some are.

Higher forms of ganking just require slightly more math and more DPS. The target will still be big, slow, and defenseless. It's still PvE.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#137 - 2015-08-26 03:03:28 UTC
If ganking was particularly easy I'd probably do it. It isn't so I don't.
Omnikron Delta
Doomheim
#138 - 2015-08-26 05:28:12 UTC
Haven't read most of the posts.....however personally I feel the terms 'griefing' & 'ganking' are moot points.

It's all just player engagement as portrayed in this EARLY eve online trailer:

The Caldari Outlaw







Bot Aspirancy is a crime! THE CODE

Black Pedro
Mine.
#139 - 2015-08-26 06:26:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
If I could multibox a hauler alt I probably would gank for profit. But there's not much point of you can't grab the loot immediately, unless you are in it purely for the tears, which some are.

Higher forms of ganking just require slightly more math and more DPS. The target will still be big, slow, and defenseless. It's still PvE.
Of course it is PvP. Two human beings, behind their keyboards have contrasting goals - one want to get their goods to market to sell them and one wants to stop them and take those goods. It the eternal struggle of predator vs. prey.

Look, if your opponent in Starcraft spends all their early game gathering resources, is it not PvP if you roll steamroll them and wipe them out without losing a unit? In Counterstrike, is it not PvP if your opponent rushes out into the open in full view of your squad and charges your with a knife so you gun him down? Of course it is.

These poor strategies of not defending yourself need to be countered by other players in those games otherwise their opponents might eventually gain an advantage. Those resources will eventually be used to build military units, or that idiot with the knife might get to a good camping position and pin you down or even stab you. These games, as well as Eve, require players to focus effort on their defense and if players choose not to out of greed, lazyness or even cluelessness then need to be called on it and destroyed - one player destroying another player.

It's clear you don't "respect" those predators defeating the prey and it is true that ship-to-ship combat between two more evenly matched opponents produces more diverse and interesting tactical situations. But if your goal is to win (that is gather resources and power) in the sandbox, such tactical situations are secondary to the real PvP struggle which goes on between the players.

Taking resources from another player is very much PvP, and PvP of more consequence than two players whelping T1 frigates in a FW complex. Destroying a freighter and taking months worth of effort from your opponent is a bigger PvP win than the closest, most exciting T1 frigate duel that has ever taken place. I guess it all depends on what your goals are in the sandbox.

But regardless of your goals in Eve, you really can't say that ganking someone isn't PvP.
TenackAcki
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#140 - 2015-08-26 06:35:07 UTC
I do agree that EVE is a sandbox game but, it is not 100% anarchy. Within the EVE universe are the 4 major factions and each one has it's own chunk of space. This space is not lawless, there is no anarchy here, these areas should be safe for everyone. Outside of this space is where anarchy rules and the strongest survives. Within the faction home worlds I expect the law enforcement from Concord and the faction military to protect my ships. It is a joke and the factions should be ashamed of the actions that happen within their borders.

This game is not designed to favor one side or the other. Within high-sec a PVE player should feel safe as they enjoy their PVE actions. In Low-Sec a PVP player should have the thrill of danger and action they are looking for. While high-sec provides safety it does not have the high value ores and if a miner wants these they must cross into low-sec to get these minerals. This game offers something for everyone and a place to do it. PVP is only one aspect of this game, if it was the sole aspect there wouldn't be any mining, production, exploration, need for a story, agent missions, CONCORD, Security levels, ect. You would get a ship fight other people, possibly level up and get better ships from a NPC market and that is it.

The only thing people who want CONCORD gone are those who wish to sit at a Jump Gate and destroy anyone who comes through. These people want easy mode kills and than be able boast about these kills.