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Vanishing Missiles
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-08-24 18:22:26 UTC
So, this is mentioned somewhere on Reddit, but being as how Reddit is not an official Eve forum, and since I have no idea how to find anything in Reddit, I wanted to bring the topic here.

Supposedly, CCP has stated that it's a known issue that missiles disappear, but I'm not sure if it's the same topic.



There are 2 ways I have had missiles disappear.

1) Target is close to the edge of your range, however, due to velocity ramp-up at launch, and due to having to somewhat chase an orbiting target, the volley will disappear.
Now, this is the one that I know everyone is aware of. It's a known issue, though it has a tendency to not always happen.
You can shoot at a target sitting still, close to the edge of your range, yet some volleys will hit, while others don't.
That said, this issue isn't really a huge concern, and I've learned how to work with it.


2) Despite the target being well within range and being an NPC with no prop mod while orbiting, the volley will strike the target, but do nothing.. No notification, no damage done to target, and does not show up in notifications window.
Situation, many times, has been shooting cruise missiles from a Bastioned Golem at targets 100km or less away.
This means there's no way I wouldn't hit the target, considering fury cruise have a good 208km range when in bastion.

The problem with this issue is, I can't ever provide evidence. When I try to, it doesn't happen. it only seems to happen when I've given up and somewhat stopped paying attention.
I typically notice, as I know (due to volley counting) this next volley should pop the target. I see the launchers cycle, I see a volley in the air, yet the target doesn't take damage.
I know CCP is aware of issue 1, and the reply I've gotten with issue 2 is that they're aware of it.. But are they confusing issue 2 WITH issue 1? In other words, are they aware that there are two different issues, or are they assuming those stating issue 2 are talking about issue 1?


Is anyone else seeing issue 2 on occasion?
It's very difficult to catch, and it'll make you feel like you're going crazy if you do notice it, due to it appearing to be extremely random..
Commander Spurty
#2 - 2015-08-24 18:46:36 UTC
What do the logs say?

/me runs for cover!

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#3 - 2015-08-24 18:47:04 UTC
yes, periodically a missile volley will show animation of firing and hitting a target but will do zero damage.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-08-24 18:55:41 UTC
Commander Spurty wrote:
What do the logs say?

/me runs for cover!


I fly missions, so it's kinda hard to read the logs.
Between the time the volley fires and the time it hits, there's a 100 other reports where the NPCs were shooting at me.
It's hard to keep track of.

And, like I stated, it never seems to happen when I'm trying to catch it happening.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#5 - 2015-08-24 18:57:19 UTC
Well I was expecting a whine thread about someone playing 'hide the missile' with OP. Am disappoint.





Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Explorer XxX
Doomheim
#6 - 2015-08-24 20:49:52 UTC
Well not sure if you knew this but NPCs shoot out defender missiles destroying your voleys to prevent that ungroup launchers. :)
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#7 - 2015-08-24 20:54:39 UTC
1st one, they are simply out of range, get closer, or slow them down. Missiles don't "always hit" like some people like to say

2nd. when you enter or exit bastion (or siege mode on a dread) with missiles in flight those missiles don't do anything, probably some bug in the code about in space objects changing properties, likely tied to when you warp off missiles in flight don't do anything, but I haven't looked at the code. long running bug, not sure if it applies to missile tracking computer thingys.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-08-24 20:59:26 UTC
Explorer XxX wrote:
Well not sure if you knew this but NPCs shoot out defender missiles destroying your volleys to prevent that ungroup launchers. :)


Incorrect. CCP has already mentioned that defenders reduce the damage of the volley but do not completely destroy the volley.

That said, back when defenders were more prevalent among NPCs, this issue wasn't occurring.
Yes, they would reduce the incoming damage, but they typically always got hit.
Not to mention, missile EHP has been upped recently, and I don't think any NPCs fire enough defenders before, but especially now.

In either case, defender missiles are visible and will typically engage the volley long before it hits the target.
With this issue, there is no visible defender volley, and my volley will hit the target, possibly even showing an explosion(not sure on this as I haven't paid attention to this), but will give no damage notification, nor apply damage to the target.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#9 - 2015-08-24 21:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Joe Risalo wrote:
Explorer XxX wrote:
Well not sure if you knew this but NPCs shoot out defender missiles destroying your volleys to prevent that ungroup launchers. :)


Incorrect. CCP has already mentioned that defenders reduce the damage of the volley but do not completely destroy the volley.

A defender (70 damage) will take out 1/4 of a torpedo (280 HP).

A defender (70 damage) will destroy a cruise missile (70 HP). [Another reason why not to use cruise on a Golem.]

When grouped, a single "super missile" that is the equivalent damage and HP of the group is created. It still works the same though, losing damage when HP is lost.

https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/weapon-grouping/
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-08-24 21:14:53 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:

2nd. when you enter or exit bastion (or siege mode on a dread) with missiles in flight those missiles don't do anything, probably some bug in the code about in space objects changing properties, likely tied to when you warp off missiles in flight don't do anything, but I haven't looked at the code. long running bug, not sure if it applies to missile tracking computer thingys.


I've heard of the Bastion bug, and I've seen it. However, it seems like this applies more specifically to issue number one, but in conjunction with a bug.
What I mean by this is, it appears that when entering or exiting Bastion, you have a brief window in where no bonuses (of ship or bastion) are applied to the missile volley, thus significantly shortening their range.
CCP recently stated that there's a brief window when exiting jump gates and stations, in which your bonuses do not apply and the system have to essentially "reload". I'm thinking this may be the same thing that is happening with Bastion.


HOWEVER, that being said, I see this issue popping up while Bastion is still cycling. Now, I will say that I have not noticed if issue 2 falls in conjunction with Bastion starting a new cycle.
If that is the case, then it definitely needs a fix for that.
However, I have seen this issue with Fury cruise missiles at less than 60km. I don't have EFT on this PC, but I'm not sure what the range of fury is without ship or bastion range bonus, but I would think it is greater than 60km. Though, if this bug causes your personal skills to also not be factored, then fury cruise hit at 49km without skills and bonuses factored.

If this is what's happening, why do I see the volley reaching the target?
Is it that the graphical processing continues to show the relevant effect, despite the system that processes that action has changed?

There's a lot of wondering on this issue.
I also don't know that it's tied just to the Golem and Bastion, as I'm almost certain I've seen it happen of a LML Jackdaw, but it was a one off situation and I couldn't confirm whether I was in range at the time (pretty sure I was), and I caught it at random.
This is why I feel like I'm going crazy every time it happens, as I can't reproduce it.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2015-08-24 21:22:35 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:

A defender (70 damage) will destroy a cruise missile (70 HP). [Another reason why not to use cruise on a Golem.]

https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/weapon-grouping/



Yes, but a defender will not take out a full volley of cruise missiles from a Golem, and never has. I've flown it for a long time, even back when NPCs used to use defenders all the time. I've never had a full volley destroyed by defenders.

Also, you can see HERE that CCP buffed missile EHP, especially for cruise missiles.
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#12 - 2015-08-24 21:25:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
yes, periodically a missile volley will show animation of firing and hitting a target but will do zero damage.



Your computer emulates what the server would show as best as it can. Sometimes it isn't right and you see the missle hit when the server said it shouldn't. It's just a side effect of using slower server ticks.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#13 - 2015-08-24 21:29:43 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Explorer XxX wrote:
Well not sure if you knew this but NPCs shoot out defender missiles destroying your volleys to prevent that ungroup launchers. :)


Incorrect. CCP has already mentioned that defenders reduce the damage of the volley but do not completely destroy the volley.

When grouped, a single "super missile" that is the equivalent damage and HP of the group is created. It still works the same though, losing damage when HP is lost.

https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/weapon-grouping/



Even with what he said about defenders just lowering the damage wouldn't what you said mean splitting your missles is a valid tactic against defenders? A super missle appears to be many but is really one. It wouldn't be good for the server if everyone split, but defenders are rarely used.



I can say at least CCP sees and understands the same things we do in the games balance. What they actually do with it is their decision though.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2015-08-24 21:34:41 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
yes, periodically a missile volley will show animation of firing and hitting a target but will do zero damage.



Your computer emulates what the server would show as best as it can. Sometimes it isn't right and you see the missle hit when the server said it shouldn't. It's just a side effect of using slower server ticks.


With the target well within range, in the case of Fury cruise, why is the server saying it shouldn't hit?

That's the main question.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#15 - 2015-08-24 22:10:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Joe Risalo wrote:
Also, you can see HERE that CCP buffed missile EHP, especially for cruise missiles.

Thanks for the update.

I use a Vargur now.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#16 - 2015-08-24 22:37:11 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Also, you can see HERE that CCP buffed missile EHP, especially for cruise missiles.

Thanks for the update.

I use a Vargur now.

looks like 240 hp on on cruise missile now Shocked

although with a decent increase in missile velocity defenders can't even catch a cruise missile. not sure if golem bonus plus bastion is enough for that, but heck at this point I don't think it matters.

Joe Risalo wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:

2nd. when you enter or exit bastion (or siege mode on a dread) with missiles in flight those missiles don't do anything, probably some bug in the code about in space objects changing properties, likely tied to when you warp off missiles in flight don't do anything, but I haven't looked at the code. long running bug, not sure if it applies to missile tracking computer thingys.


I've heard of the Bastion bug, and I've seen it. However, it seems like this applies more specifically to issue number one, but in conjunction with a bug.
What I mean by this is, it appears that when entering or exiting Bastion, you have a brief window in where no bonuses (of ship or bastion) are applied to the missile volley, thus significantly shortening their range.
CCP recently stated that there's a brief window when exiting jump gates and stations, in which your bonuses do not apply and the system have to essentially "reload". I'm thinking this may be the same thing that is happening with Bastion.


HOWEVER, that being said, I see this issue popping up while Bastion is still cycling. Now, I will say that I have not noticed if issue 2 falls in conjunction with Bastion starting a new cycle.
If that is the case, then it definitely needs a fix for that.
However, I have seen this issue with Fury cruise missiles at less than 60km. I don't have EFT on this PC, but I'm not sure what the range of fury is without ship or bastion range bonus, but I would think it is greater than 60km. Though, if this bug causes your personal skills to also not be factored, then fury cruise hit at 49km without skills and bonuses factored.

If this is what's happening, why do I see the volley reaching the target?
Is it that the graphical processing continues to show the relevant effect, despite the system that processes that action has changed?

There's a lot of wondering on this issue.
I also don't know that it's tied just to the Golem and Bastion, as I'm almost certain I've seen it happen of a LML Jackdaw, but it was a one off situation and I couldn't confirm whether I was in range at the time (pretty sure I was), and I caught it at random.
This is why I feel like I'm going crazy every time it happens, as I can't reproduce it.


all I know is what I said. that said with a jackdaw it might happen when you switch modes. and AFAIK it only happens to a volley currently in flight. The graphics are a little delayed sometimes.

I haven't had an issue, but I also almost never use missiles anymore. It got too annoying with the variations in the module cycle timer, and the graphical representation of missiles.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#17 - 2015-08-25 10:51:34 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Well I was expecting a whine thread about someone playing 'hide the missile' with OP. Am disappoint.







Stick around, you never know.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#18 - 2015-08-25 10:56:05 UTC
I use a Tengu when missioning, and rarely ever fire my missiles grouped.

Now at times I have seen certain npc types firing what seems to be hundreds of defenders to thwart my efforts.

But on the other hand i have fired what would amount to 3-4 volleys at a target that doesn't use defenders (18-24 missiles) at around 50-60 km and my missile range is 85km yet only 2 missiles would hit and actually do damage.

I have simply dealt with it, but it is a mystery as why this occurs....it did not use to occur, an it reminds me of an old John Wayne movie....not sure if one of the submarine ones or the movie with the PT squadron....but they had issues at one point where torpedoes were coming up as dud's.

Maybe CCP has written in some sort of DUD mechanic......and if they did, then they need to write in a possible weapons jam malfunction for non-missile firing turrets(ofc lasers dont count here)
Aves Asio
#19 - 2015-08-25 11:05:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Aves Asio
Yes its a bug, i have had a lot of time to observe it on the hawk. The hawk has 11k range with rage and basically if the target is 7k away its not worth to shoot the target, you are just wasting ammo.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#20 - 2015-08-25 11:23:17 UTC
Try shooting at a stationary target in a Mordus Legion ship with guided missiles while sitting at zero velocity to see this effect. Range should be somewhere between known max range and known max range -1 second of missile velocity. High-end missile velocity and especially short flight times seem to have a larger area within their range where this occurs more than not.

It is a weird bug, indeed. And, no doubt, it's there. CCP doesn't really need to confirm, it's easily reproducible with simple conditions rather consistently. Could be spurred on by a number of things; differences between visual representation of missiles client side and how they behave code-wise, issues with client-server clashing, some players have suggested they suspect the server rounds up and down when finalizing calculations on missile projection which can trim some of your range off, NPC's using defenders which are far more difficult to see and detect nowadays, missiles having a sort of "two-stage" flight pattern, the ability for targets in motion to kite or ourtrun missiles due to flight time, even object hit-boxes not being visually accurate (even worse on structures and other larger entities), etc.

The Bastion glitch is an odd one, too. Somehow, Bastion effects being applied to or being removed from existing missile salvos causes their stats to go to ****, to the point of cruise missiles with 219Km range (traveling 13880m a second for 15.8 seconds) "miss" when trying to hit something barely 20 clicks out. Yet, turn on an MGC with birds in the air, they seem to work fine.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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