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Galatea Entosis Speed Limit/stasis web broken interactions

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Author
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#21 - 2015-08-24 16:12:21 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
What happens when you fit the rapier with a pair of fed navy webs like you should have from the beginning?

The bigger question should be what happens to sov warfare when a faction-fited Rapier becomes a de-facto tool to defend sov from trolling attacks?



T2 is the same 60%, just less range

So, OK, lets assume T2

What happens when you fit 2 T2 like you should have from the beginning?

I was assuming that the range was actually beneficial given the mechanics involved and the Rapier's web range bonus, but my point is the same regardless. Let me broaden my question somewhat:

What happens to sov warfare when the ability to apply speed control to hostile fast-movers becomes the de-facto tool to defend sov from trolling attacks?



Well, we pretty much have a web loki in every fleet, i know from experience, you guys have huggins

Where does it say, "I should be able to undock and blap whatever is entosising in 20 seconds and get back to krabbing"

I must have missed that part of sov is for bears 101
Masaaq
Soggy Biscuit.
#22 - 2015-08-24 16:12:41 UTC
Borachon wrote:
Masaaq wrote:
Bring a Lachesis next time. Problem solved.


Using the same mechanics, you can also make a Phantasm setup that goes 4k when fitted with a T2 entosis link and still goes 4kms when hit by a scram and a T2 web.

EDIT: An example of such a fit


Hyena says "Hi!"
Borachon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-08-24 16:14:58 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
What happens when you fit the rapier with a pair of fed navy webs like you should have from the beginning?

The bigger question should be what happens to sov warfare when a faction-fited Rapier becomes a de-facto tool to defend sov from trolling attacks?



T2 is the same 60%, just less range

So, OK, lets assume T2

What happens when you fit 2 T2 like you should have from the beginning?


Multiple webs reduce the speed more, but stacking penalties also start to kick in and are less effective. For example, a 500mn vaga hit by two T2 webs can still go 3700m/s heated, and with three webs 2500m/s heated. A scram would obviously shut it down, however.

Let me be clear - I'm not arguing on either side of the Galatea speed limit as a sov fix here. I'm just asking about the whether this interaction is as designed or the result of, for example, having to use legacy systems to get it in place that could perhaps be fixed in the future.

Thanks for the clarification that this is the intended effect, Fozzie.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#24 - 2015-08-24 16:17:06 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Well, we pretty much have a web loki in every fleet, i know from experience, you guys have huggins

Where does it say, "I should be able to undock and blap whatever is entosising in 20 seconds and get back to krabbing"

I must have missed that part of sov is for bears 101

I'm asking from the standpoint of an outsider. I haven't lived in nullsec in years, I operate an independent Empire-space corp, and I can't even fly T2 Minmatar cruisers.

My point was that, from a gameplay standpoint, making entosis mechanics all about speed seems rather one-dimensional. I would imagine that requiring a more diverse offensive force would make for more entertaining battles.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#25 - 2015-08-24 16:17:44 UTC
Borachon wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
What happens when you fit the rapier with a pair of fed navy webs like you should have from the beginning?

The bigger question should be what happens to sov warfare when a faction-fited Rapier becomes a de-facto tool to defend sov from trolling attacks?



T2 is the same 60%, just less range

So, OK, lets assume T2

What happens when you fit 2 T2 like you should have from the beginning?


Multiple webs reduce the speed more, but stacking penalties also start to kick in and are less effective. For example, a 500mn vaga hit by two T2 webs can still go 3700m/s heated, and with three webs 2500m/s heated. A scram would obviously shut it down, however.

Let me be clear - I'm not arguing on either side of the Galatea speed limit as a sov fix here. I'm just asking about the whether this interaction is as designed or the result of, for example, having to use legacy systems to get it in place that could perhaps be fixed in the future.

Thanks for the clarification that this is the intended effect, Fozzie.



I'm not arguing one way or the other either......

I merely pointed out, that if you fit a rapier with a single web to try and use that as a reference to slow down a ship, that is almost pointless

Every rapier, huginn and loki should have 2 fitted for sure
Borachon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2015-08-24 16:30:50 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
[
Every rapier, huginn and loki should have 2 fitted for sure


Mine certainly do. :)

The stacking penalty on the second web is modest enough that its not too severe, but is still non-trivial. In the original daredevil example, two webs make it go 2000 m/s, as opposed to the 1600m/s it would go if the second web wasn't stacking penalized or the 800m/s it would go if the two webs applied to the 4km/s speed limit, not the 10km/s top speed.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#27 - 2015-08-24 17:13:46 UTC
captain foivos wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This is by design. It's a hard speed limit, not part of the other normal speed modifiers.


"feature"


Cynosural field generators have a similar speed limit stat, only for those the limit prevents the module from being activated, rather than limiting the top speed of the ship just by being fitted.

Why does OP only have one web on his Rapier anyway? A second web would affect it, and if you're chasing after it with a non-Entosis interceptor or tackle frigate you should be able to catch up to it and shut off its MWD and not need the web in the first place.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Borachon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-08-24 21:03:43 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:

Why does OP only have one web on his Rapier anyway? A second web would affect it, and if you're chasing after it with a non-Entosis interceptor or tackle frigate you should be able to catch up to it and shut off its MWD and not need the web in the first place.


OP had two webs on his rapier, but posted what he did because he his main goal was to test how a new game feature interacted with existing game features and report the results. Fozzie clarified that thiis is indeed what was intended. Fin.
Kibitt Kallinikov
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#29 - 2015-08-24 21:15:20 UTC
It was my understanding that the entosis link continues its current cycle even if you burn out of its effective range, meaning you cannot warp away.

If you really don't like frigates with t1 entosis links being able to disengage, why not make a falloff range for entosis where your speed drops down to, say, 15% of its normal value? This way, you can still inch your way back to try and get your speed, but you aren't going to just fly off into the sunset. I don't think this would really implact t2 entosis links, and I'm sure there are unintended consequences of such a change, but it sounds like that is what most people are asking for.
Borachon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-08-24 21:19:27 UTC
ISD, issue raised in original post asked and answered by dev. Suggest locking thread and referring people who want to debate aegis sov tweaks to appropriate thread in F&I forum.
Niraia
Starcakes
Cynosural Field Theory.
#31 - 2015-08-24 21:30:24 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This is by design.


lol

Somal Thunder
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#32 - 2015-08-24 22:05:31 UTC
You can fit a Vigilant to 10km/s without links or snakes. That's -6km/s radial velocity on your target which means that in 60 seconds you can close 360km from your target provided that the target is flying in a straight line.

But the Vigilant is expensive and the target might not fly in a straight line at all. A Daredevil can do 7.3k unlinked and unsnaked and applies 90% webs as well for a fraction of the price. A Hyena is slower but cheaper and benefits from the additional range.

The point is that there are still reasonably cheap counters to what you're complaining about that don't require links or snakes, so if someone in snakes goes to entosis your **** you can just bring a couple of daredevils or a vigilant or decloak some rapiers or something. Stop whining about it.

Arla Sarain
#33 - 2015-08-24 22:22:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
"Double webs is not real peoples"


That said, didn't CCP say something about how they expected Entosis links to be deployed at the end of an engagement, when the grid was secured? Why would you need speed for such an occasion?

On one side, all the nullsec crabbers are hilariously upset they have to press not JUST F1, but also F2, and maybe F3.
On the other side, CCP is not very honest with themselves.


Invest into corn, demand should be high with all this entertainment abound...
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#34 - 2015-08-24 23:31:40 UTC
Borachon wrote:
Testing the speed limit on SiSi, it's interaction with webs is broken. In particular:

  1. I created a snaked, unlinked daredevil that goes 6.5km/s unheated, 10km/s heated, and fitted it with an entisos link.
  2. I set it to orbit a rapier fit with a T2 (60%) web at 20 km.
  3. Unwebbed, the daredevil goes 4km/s as it should
  4. Webbed and unheated the daredevil goes 2600 m/s (40% * 6.5km/s), not 1600 m/s (40% * 4km/s)
  5. Webbed and heated, the daredevil does 4000 m/s (40% * 10km/s), not 1600 m/s (40% * 4km/s)


tl;dr: Under the current speed limit mechanics, you can create ships that go 4km/s when fit with an entosis link fit, and still goes 4km/s even after being hit with a 60% stasis web.


OK I guess you worked out what a speed cap means.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Thirdsin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2015-08-24 23:49:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Thirdsin
shrugs the NaCl off his shoulder

I'd really wish CCP might reconsider this classification of 'feature' rather than 'bug'.


Super fun time!

I'll provide the lore behind CCPs currently rational as 'feature'. Ready? Go!
Quote:

Once online, the entosis module creates a quantum fluctuation that permeates through the vessel and anything touching it. As far as Carthum Conglomerate scientists can determine, this quantum fluctuation seems to interact with dark matter in space causing drag when approaching speeds of 4,000m/s.

It is theorized that a vessel reaching a speed more than 4,000m/s would risk the front of the vessel being sheered off, spaghettified, or being delivered to a different temporal location as this interaction would violate the laws of Newtonian gravity.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#36 - 2015-08-25 05:33:07 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This is by design.

This question was asked in the original feedback thread. It wasnt answered there, but it's answered here. For me, it proves that devs value bug-reports much more than the genuine feedback.
Message received, thanks.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#37 - 2015-08-25 06:09:27 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Well, we pretty much have a web loki in every fleet, i know from experience, you guys have huggins

Where does it say, "I should be able to undock and blap whatever is entosising in 20 seconds and get back to krabbing"

I must have missed that part of sov is for bears 101

Get your own sov first.
Then I may allow you to have an opinion.

("First have it" must be the point that harmonizes really well with an avarage PL member, as they use it in every discussion topic regarding capital ships. So I just drop it here.)
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#38 - 2015-08-25 06:09:29 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This is by design. It's a hard speed limit, not part of the other normal speed modifiers.


Roll

translation:
we couldn't actually implement that properly so we added yet another quick hack to the legacy code to meet the requirements even though it behaves differently to everything else in the game.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#39 - 2015-08-25 06:25:19 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This is by design. It's a hard speed limit, not part of the other normal speed modifiers.

Also, when you see some-one moving 4km/s, and you put a web on him - but he still moves 4km/s... well, that is confusing. For newbies especially. Not good for NPE, just saying.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
Cauldron of Ecstasy
#40 - 2015-08-25 07:49:15 UTC
So, when do we all march on Jita and demand Fozzie's head???

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

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