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Crime & Punishment

 
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My Views On Hisec - CSM Platform

First post
Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#41 - 2015-08-22 04:07:10 UTC
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:

Again it's just broken when the mechanics discourage the grouping up of the industrial players who provide us with the mans to make the things blow up


They don't discourage much at all, if you ask me. Industry in particular is often a complex chain of things that one character would be hard pressed to accomplish on their own.

Note that I said "character". Alts exist, and that more than anything is the cause of what you're talking about. Interdependence is so much easier to mange when there are no other people.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#42 - 2015-08-22 04:28:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:

Again it's just broken when the mechanics discourage the grouping up of the industrial players who provide us with the mans to make the things blow up


They don't discourage much at all, if you ask me. Industry in particular is often a complex chain of things that one character would be hard pressed to accomplish on their own.

Note that I said "character". Alts exist, and that more than anything is the cause of what you're talking about. Interdependence is so much easier to mange when there are no other people.

But I don't need to be in a corp with you to accomplish the complex chain of things. Hell I shouldn't be unless I trust you really really well. What I'm getting at here is if you and I were making things for stuff why would we corp up Leto if he had no ability to make things for stuff? If he could we would still all be better off being in our own 1 man corp and utilize contracts to each other to achieve our 3 man chain and we could do so almost as efficiently (-10000 isk per contract) as 3 people doing it in the same corp only we have much less chance of attracting unwanted attention to our corps. This is what I mean when I say the mechanics are not rewarding groups over individuals. What meaning is there to a corp when all it has are drawbacks with very limited benefits?

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#43 - 2015-08-22 08:09:26 UTC
I am all for getting highsec to be more 'interesting'. As for incursions, I had my fill of it. Great isk but so damn boring doing what some guy/gal tells you to do in your 1b+ isk ship. I spent more time spamming D-scan than I was actually paying attention and shooting stuff that they told me to do.

I also like the idea of moving the higher level mission agents to lower (0.5 or 0.6) systems, but not into lowsec. I don't mind taking my frigates into lowsec for lulz but if I want to mission, I don't need some asshat trying to take out my battleship cause I am in a 0.3 system. If I wanted that, I would run missions in lowsec to begin with.

In all honesty, I would love to be able to declare war on specific toons, not corps/alliances. There are a few in NPC corps that would get the business end of an Incursus. Yes, I have a list. :)

And also been thinking hard of making a new toon to fly in Fredegar corp out of sheer boredom. I really don't pvp much but I do have experience in EWAR on this toon. And of course wormhole exploration and mission running.
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#44 - 2015-08-22 08:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Noragen Neirfallas
Morgan Agrivar wrote:
I am all for getting highsec to be more 'interesting'. As for incursions, I had my fill of it. Great isk but so damn boring doing what some guy/gal tells you to do in your 1b+ isk ship. I spent more time spamming D-scan than I was actually paying attention and shooting stuff that they told me to do.

I also like the idea of moving the higher level mission agents to lower (0.5 or 0.6) systems, but not into lowsec. I don't mind taking my frigates into lowsec for lulz but if I want to mission, I don't need some asshat trying to take out my battleship cause I am in a 0.3 system. If I wanted that, I would run missions in lowsec to begin with.

In all honesty, I would love to be able to declare war on specific toons, not corps/alliances. There are a few in NPC corps that would get the business end of an Incursus. Yes, I have a list. :)

And also been thinking hard of making a new toon to fly in Fredegar corp out of sheer boredom. I really don't pvp much but I do have experience in EWAR on this toon. And of course wormhole exploration and mission running.

We flew the idea of character wardecs about a while ago. The biggest concern was the ability to wardec every single freighter in New Eden over the course of a week by somebody/group with too much isk. Marmite and Code. come to mind.

Edit. And by we I mean C&P forum Big smile

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#45 - 2015-08-22 08:26:04 UTC
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Morgan Agrivar wrote:
I am all for getting highsec to be more 'interesting'. As for incursions, I had my fill of it. Great isk but so damn boring doing what some guy/gal tells you to do in your 1b+ isk ship. I spent more time spamming D-scan than I was actually paying attention and shooting stuff that they told me to do.

I also like the idea of moving the higher level mission agents to lower (0.5 or 0.6) systems, but not into lowsec. I don't mind taking my frigates into lowsec for lulz but if I want to mission, I don't need some asshat trying to take out my battleship cause I am in a 0.3 system. If I wanted that, I would run missions in lowsec to begin with.

In all honesty, I would love to be able to declare war on specific toons, not corps/alliances. There are a few in NPC corps that would get the business end of an Incursus. Yes, I have a list. :)

And also been thinking hard of making a new toon to fly in Fredegar corp out of sheer boredom. I really don't pvp much but I do have experience in EWAR on this toon. And of course wormhole exploration and mission running.

We flew the idea of character wardecs about a while ago. The biggest concern was the ability to wardec every single freighter in New Eden over the course of a week by somebody/group with too much isk. Marmite and Code. come to mind.

Edit. And by we I mean C&P forum Big smile


I see what you are saying. It is just somewhat annoying when someone comes into your mission and starts salvaging your wrecks that you spent 15m blowing up. I still have that bastards name and if he does join a corp, I will wardec them. No matter that I am the only one in this corp, he will BOW DOWN BEFORE MY INCURSUS BLASTERS!!! Uh....ahem. Sorry about that. Mommy issues came up again.

I have spent a lot of time in wormhole space, a fair bit of time in lowsec (where I learned I really am not good at pvp) and the rest in high sec. Currently, I haven't been playing much cause I am bored with what I am doing. I already sold my incursion battleship cause couldn't play F1 robot anymore, even though it was great isk for highsec.

Trade and markets? Pfffft. Suck at it.

So I fully support any way to make it more interesting in highsec.


Morgan

P.S. Save your isk and don't bother wardeccing me. I rarely undock these days. Got my Gunnery training going on! Lol
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#46 - 2015-08-22 09:20:54 UTC
Morgan Agrivar wrote:
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Morgan Agrivar wrote:
I am all for getting highsec to be more 'interesting'. As for incursions, I had my fill of it. Great isk but so damn boring doing what some guy/gal tells you to do in your 1b+ isk ship. I spent more time spamming D-scan than I was actually paying attention and shooting stuff that they told me to do.

I also like the idea of moving the higher level mission agents to lower (0.5 or 0.6) systems, but not into lowsec. I don't mind taking my frigates into lowsec for lulz but if I want to mission, I don't need some asshat trying to take out my battleship cause I am in a 0.3 system. If I wanted that, I would run missions in lowsec to begin with.

In all honesty, I would love to be able to declare war on specific toons, not corps/alliances. There are a few in NPC corps that would get the business end of an Incursus. Yes, I have a list. :)

And also been thinking hard of making a new toon to fly in Fredegar corp out of sheer boredom. I really don't pvp much but I do have experience in EWAR on this toon. And of course wormhole exploration and mission running.

We flew the idea of character wardecs about a while ago. The biggest concern was the ability to wardec every single freighter in New Eden over the course of a week by somebody/group with too much isk. Marmite and Code. come to mind.

Edit. And by we I mean C&P forum Big smile


I see what you are saying. It is just somewhat annoying when someone comes into your mission and starts salvaging your wrecks that you spent 15m blowing up. I still have that bastards name and if he does join a corp, I will wardec them. No matter that I am the only one in this corp, he will BOW DOWN BEFORE MY INCURSUS BLASTERS!!! Uh....ahem. Sorry about that. Mommy issues came up again.

I have spent a lot of time in wormhole space, a fair bit of time in lowsec (where I learned I really am not good at pvp) and the rest in high sec. Currently, I haven't been playing much cause I am bored with what I am doing. I already sold my incursion battleship cause couldn't play F1 robot anymore, even though it was great isk for highsec.

Trade and markets? Pfffft. Suck at it.

So I fully support any way to make it more interesting in highsec.


Morgan

P.S. Save your isk and don't bother wardeccing me. I rarely undock these days. Got my Gunnery training going on! Lol

Also go read my proposed change threadBig smile.

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Don Purple
Going Full Potato
Trash Tier Alliance
#47 - 2015-08-22 11:44:54 UTC
Much enjoyed.

I am just here to snuggle and do spy stuff.

Bellatrix Invicta
Doomheim
#48 - 2015-08-22 14:25:39 UTC
Why stop at CSM?

Bronson for Emperor!

If you think you've won, think again.

The CODE always wins.

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#49 - 2015-08-22 14:57:12 UTC
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
Why stop at CSM?

Bronson for Emperor!

The position is open...

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Bellatrix Invicta
Doomheim
#50 - 2015-08-22 15:05:11 UTC
Yeah, my girl Jamyl had enough it seems.

1v1 Thunderdome - Bronson vs. Max Singularity for the Throne.

If you think you've won, think again.

The CODE always wins.

Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2015-08-22 15:13:26 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
I think this is a waste of time. None of your proposed changes do anything to directly benefit anyone that isn't a merc, griefer, and/or content creator. You take away without actually doing anything to balance the other side of the coin, which is silly. Why would any high-sec dwelling person that isn't "like me" agree to your platform and vote for you? The other part to this is that Aegissov is in need of fine-tuning and most everyone is concerned with more important things than war costs and agent relocation. Kudos to you though...


Aye yea 90% of Sov Null is up in arms over Fozziesov; so highsec changes is on the back burner.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2015-08-22 15:44:33 UTC
The thing with lowsec PvE is that the risk/reward only makes sense if you live there. Day-tripping in from highsec to run sites is too risky in my opinion; missions would be even worse as they pay far less. On the other hand, running sites with 20 corpmates within 2 jumps who will gleefully blob anything that bothers you makes the whole endeavor much more reasonable. We had a Snuff Orthrus pop up outside a site in Suj a few days ago after we chased his PvE Tengu out; 10 guys came running inside 3 minutes, resulting in a hero tackle by one of our atrons, followed by jams, followed by a 500M ISK killmail. I think adding some lvl 4 agents to lowsec would help residents and make living there more viable as there aren't all that many DED sites to go around. The problem, as someone already noted, is that the Isk/lp conversion on most factions is trash.

I would not support removing SOE 4s from highsec as they are the only faction worth running at all and the income is only broken due to burners which can be easily farmed in low anyway (because frigates and much lower completion times). Adding some SOE agents to non-FW lowsec might be good, but basically you will just see them get farmed hilariously by the entities living on top of them. Case in point, level 5 FW missions have massive payouts but are mostly ignored, except for the Russians in Hysera who farm them in Nyxes daily and for some reason never get dropped on. (Seriously if you want a good chuckle, go to Hysera in Russian TZ and open dscan; the system is littered with elite fed navy wrecks, and supercarriers.)
Damnskippy
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2015-08-22 23:02:47 UTC
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
The entire "us vs them" scheme is whats out of whack. New players are introduced into a false sense of security from undock 1; beliving that high security space represents a supposed safe zone, when the reality is quite contrary. EVE and "safety" should be explained (and shown to be) mutually exclusive terms at the outset. NPC corps should be defaulted at war just like FW. This will accustom new players to the certainty that eve isn't safe anywhere no matter what. No matter what side of the coin you are on, that is a fact. I think the core problems we have are brought about by players thinking the contrary.

Everyone needs to make ISK. Bearing isnt a bad thing. Expecting to print ISK with no risk is the bad part.

Remove highsec incursions. There is no baby step here as running these gives zero reason to ever go anywhere else.

Agree with reducing ore in highsec, ice too, and make ice scannable again.

Personally id like to see a bit more motivators for highsec war. Standings, LP, or something to get people interested in actually fighting. Agree with the caps and scaled costs.

Tax the **** outta npc income.


Go read my damed sov lite post Leto and tell me what you think of the update Big smile.

I agree there needs to be a motivator like a resource to drive the conflict and that way the us vs them will change from predator/prey to group/other group. I like being in a corp with a bunch of dedicated bears who occasionally pvp to protect themselves. It's fun (and cheaper) and grants you differing perspectives however there is no game mechanic reason beyond a shared hanger (which is badly implemented) for us to all be in the same corp. It would make more sense to have our own corps and use a chat channel and mailing list with the half a dozen organizers having access to the same corp hanger...

Again it's just broken when the mechanics discourage the grouping up of the industrial players who provide us with the mans to make the things blow up


That is an excellent point. Their should be some incentive to corp up and stick around once someone decides to war dec you. Currently if you don't want to fight, you don't lose anything but a ticker and hanger access by jumping corps.
Damnskippy
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2015-08-22 23:12:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Damnskippy
Leto Thule wrote:
The entire "us vs them" scheme is whats out of whack. New players are introduced into a false sense of security from undock 1; beliving that high security space represents a supposed safe zone, when the reality is quite contrary. EVE and "safety" should be explained (and shown to be) mutually exclusive terms at the outset. NPC corps should be defaulted at war just like FW. This will accustom new players to the certainty that eve isn't safe anywhere no matter what. No matter what side of the coin you are on, that is a fact. I think the core problems we have are brought about by players thinking the contrary.
This is a great idea. I worry that it would be excessively abused without some overly complicated rules though.

Everyone needs to make ISK. Bearing isnt a bad thing. Expecting to print ISK with no risk is the bad part.
Agreed

Remove highsec incursions. There is no baby step here as running these gives zero reason to ever go anywhere else.
I've already stated my opinions on high sec incursions.

Agree with reducing ore in highsec, ice too, and make ice scannable again.
I haven't mined since 2008 but seems fair enough. It looks like what is proposed allows the high sec dweller access to the same ore with just a moderate amount of additional risk.
Personally id like to see a bit more motivators for highsec war. Standings, LP, or something to get people interested in actually fighting. Agree with the caps and scaled costs.
I agree. However, it needs to be far more incentivized for the defender to encourage them to undock and fight.

Tax the **** outta npc income.



Wow I suck at forum quoting.
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
BLACKFLAG.
#55 - 2015-08-22 23:27:19 UTC
Damnskippy wrote:
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
The entire "us vs them" scheme is whats out of whack. New players are introduced into a false sense of security from undock 1; beliving that high security space represents a supposed safe zone, when the reality is quite contrary. EVE and "safety" should be explained (and shown to be) mutually exclusive terms at the outset. NPC corps should be defaulted at war just like FW. This will accustom new players to the certainty that eve isn't safe anywhere no matter what. No matter what side of the coin you are on, that is a fact. I think the core problems we have are brought about by players thinking the contrary.

Everyone needs to make ISK. Bearing isnt a bad thing. Expecting to print ISK with no risk is the bad part.

Remove highsec incursions. There is no baby step here as running these gives zero reason to ever go anywhere else.

Agree with reducing ore in highsec, ice too, and make ice scannable again.

Personally id like to see a bit more motivators for highsec war. Standings, LP, or something to get people interested in actually fighting. Agree with the caps and scaled costs.

Tax the **** outta npc income.


Go read my damed sov lite post Leto and tell me what you think of the update Big smile.

I agree there needs to be a motivator like a resource to drive the conflict and that way the us vs them will change from predator/prey to group/other group. I like being in a corp with a bunch of dedicated bears who occasionally pvp to protect themselves. It's fun (and cheaper) and grants you differing perspectives however there is no game mechanic reason beyond a shared hanger (which is badly implemented) for us to all be in the same corp. It would make more sense to have our own corps and use a chat channel and mailing list with the half a dozen organizers having access to the same corp hanger...

Again it's just broken when the mechanics discourage the grouping up of the industrial players who provide us with the mans to make the things blow up


That is an excellent point. Their should be some incentive to corp up and stick around once someone decides to war dec you. Currently if you don't want to fight, you don't lose anything but a ticker and hanger access by jumping corps.

Well so far all we have are propositions that put more risk and consequence into hisec which is fine but Bronson needs to also provide us with some changes that actually promote joining and staying in a corp (even when the times get rough with wardecs and such).

If you really are a voice for hisec, you need to beef up your platform. I mean it is all about balance, right?
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2015-08-23 10:47:10 UTC
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
Why stop at CSM?

Bronson for Emperor!



Bronson, the Saviour gave you his blessing, you can be our Empress.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#57 - 2015-08-23 10:49:27 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
Why stop at CSM?

Bronson for Emperor!



Bronson, the Saviour gave you his blessing, you can be our Empress.

I agree Bronson would look rather fetching in a gown

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Alex Rax
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2015-08-23 20:59:10 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
snip



Sounds good, you have my vote.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#59 - 2015-08-24 13:38:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
I have returned from my out-of-pod weekend of debauchery and fornication and have given the replies since my departure a quick read. I will do them more justice this evening, but I wanted to pop in and say that I see a few good ideas and points I hadn't considered and I appreciate everyone taking time to share them.

Thanks for the support.

Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
Why stop at CSM?

Bronson for Emperor!



Bronson, the Saviour gave you his blessing, you can be our Empress.

I agree Bronson would look rather fetching in a gown

It'd have to be floor length because there is no way I'm shaving my legs.

Also, isn't it fortuitous that Empress Jamyl Sarum was just (allegedly) killed by Drifters? Maybe my plan the whole time was to get the Drifters to back me for Empress and get her out of the way....

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Awesome Alliance
#60 - 2015-08-24 13:56:34 UTC
You seem to have some good ideas that would genuinely help high sec and encourage new players to get into player corps.

Good stuff.