Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I don't address the OA because we don't know anything about the OA. Even the idea that OA will allow us to find cloaks is only a suggested feature of the OA and not set in stone. We have no idea how this will work, who it will benefit, what it will cost, or any other useful information. I'm glad it's being considered, but of the few things we do know is that it won't be a casual structure like a deployable, and currently anything bigger than a deployable would be wholly unsuitable for most uses on an individual scale. To add to that it is suggested that several will be needed per system, meaning that what ever it costs will be multiplied.

As to your other 'costs', they are no more or less severe than anyone in space. You don't need a Cov-ops ship and cloak to afk camp, it can be done in a newbie ship and be equally effective at it's basic level. As there is no way to apply any sort of effort to locating or identifying the ship it does not matter what the ship is, the assessment of risk must be judged soley off factors like pilot age, and kill board if you choose to trust 3rd party information that has been potentially specifically groomed to be misleading. So Skill is trivial, it takes very little time to train into a prototype cloak. Even if you assume a cov-ops cloak on a cov-ops ship you are only looking at maybe 2 months, with most of that being basic core skills and frigate level 5? Less than that if you use an Astero.

The cost of purchasing the ship? You yourself refute cost as being a balance factor, though profit appears to be one which is a double standard of fairly substantial proportions. Even at that a cov-ops frigate or Astero isn't exactly a huge investment. It's not like purchasing these ships can only be done in remote and exotic dangerous locations, so really the purchase of the ship is the least severe 'cost' of any aspect, and in many cases cheaper than the ships being targeted through afk camping.

Purchase of the ship fitting, including the cloak is subject to the same non-issue as above. No special fittings beyond that of a prototype cloak are required, and we aren't exactly talking about a rare or expensive item here. Even a Cov-ops cloak is a trivial cost, a few million at most. It's also not as if the target ships are running around without fittings, and in many cases more expensive fits than would be reasonable for the needs of a cloaked camper.

Travel time to the target system. Here is your one and only real cost in setting up the camp. If you are not in a cov-ops ship this is kind of difficult, but a cov-ops ship with a prop mod can make it through all but the most dedicated gate camps if the pilot knows what he's doing. Certainly there is risk involved in this initial step of setting up your camp, but I highly doubt anyone would be ok with a pve pilot spending one night a year setting up their spot and then being capable of carrying out their operations in complete safety from that point forward. Even if killed enroute to their intended camp, they are out only some ISK and a little time, whereas the cost of that camp will cut the ISK potential of the camped system dramatically, and either waste the time of multiple defenders standing guard, drive pve activity out of the system, or inflict the same kind of reshipping time on the target of a successful hunt.

No, none of that 'cost' is balanced for the effect of AFK cloaked camping, or the power of cloaks in general. That mechanic is only balanced by Dev Fiat announcing it's balanced because of it's effect on PvE.

If someone is running around in your office with a knife everyday, but you can't see them, do you still come to work and work on spreadsheets? Thoughts on doing this with paintball gun in the CCP office at night? seems fair.

Please provide a quote where somebody on the "pro-AFK cloaking" side of the discussion has claimed a right to catch "soft targets"? Seriously, put up or shut up on this point. You keep claiming it, but I submit that this claim of yours is in fact totally without substance.

Local is too powerful in that it gives a distinct edge to the person already in system. This means they always have the edge in terms of "getting away". This does not mean that those hunting people already in system have a right to catch them, but they should have a better chance than they currently have (aside from being dumb or inattentive). Let me break it down for you, because you eschew PvP and probably just don't know the process.

1. You are already in system XYZ-123.
2. I jump into XYZ-123.
3. You see my avatar pop up in local.
4. I'm still in the warp tunnel.
5. You align out.
6. I load grid.
7. You start spamming the warp to [safety] button.
8. I warp to a random anomaly hoping you are there.
9. You are landing at your safe spot.
10. I am still in warp to the anomaly.*

That sequence of events will repeat itself again and again until you fall asleep around 3, are AFK around 3-8 (unless I have probes, which would be inserted 8), or you are just too engrossed in whatever is on Netfliz (Amazon, etc.).

*Note: 9 and 10 could be interchanged, but with little real difference in the consequences.

Why should they have a better chance than they currently have?

You are trying to singlehandedly defeat the efforts of an entire alliance's attempts to secure that space, as evidenced by the fact that you are the only hostile there and are worried about the defense fleet that will form up if you try to stay and don't cloak up.

Last I checked 1 vs. 100 fights tend to fare pooly for the 1

There isn't any special other cost to that activity. In fact, you could even train the cloak skills first, load up a cargo hold of skillbooks, and spend your afk time training those other skills. That's not a cost, except maybe a shift in your training priorities. Everyone has to make those choices. Everyone buys ships, everyone buys modules, everyone buys skills... everyone else does all that and remains at risk the entire time they remain effective at their chosen tasks.

You are complaining about how many tries it would take to get into deep enemy territory in literally free newbie ships? You could throw away hundreds, if not thousands of those ships fit only with a prototype cloak and cost your enemy more in a few days than you will ever have spent arranging it.

Loading up the cargo hold increases the costs.

Now I have an expensive cargo as well as the ship, the modules, the travel time, etc.

And yeah, everyone buys skills, ships, etc. The point is whatever ship, skill, etc. you buy comes not only with the ISK cost, but the opportunity costs.

And I'm not complaining about anything other than the fact that you omit certain aspects of the discussion when it suits you. I'm trying to highlight the dishonesty in your posts. I'm trying to ruin your credibility. On purpose. And fortunately you are helping me.

BTW, since you are posting...care to post that quote where one of us "pro-AFK cloaking" folks have claimed a right to catch PvE ships?

Look, the issue is you aren't trying to secure your space. If you had 100 guys that were online and in system or surrounding systems you might have a point. You don't so you don't (have a point that is). Hell, even having 3-4 other guys ratting with you would defeat the cloaky camper.

So drop the cloak and just hang out then. The only reason there isn't more people trying to actively hunt you down right that second is because it's not bleeding possible no matter how much effort is put into it. cloak goes up, everyone goes home. End of game, you win.

Point is you think it's reasonable that everyone play the way you want, when you want and how you want. And the Devs agree, so you win. Not because it's balanced, but because PVE can just go frolic themselves until their nuts turn blue.

Sure. It's reasonable that you be able to deny the use of any space you decide to sit in, or at the very least radically reduce it's value, with exactly zero way to stop you. Because the Devs said so. Completely balanced. You win.