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Should High sec go away?
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#381 - 2015-08-23 16:35:29 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Your arguments are that of a child.


Says the guy who incessantly white knights for incursions, the single most broken thing in the game? Thanks for the laugh.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#382 - 2015-08-23 16:36:12 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
High sec isn't the problem. The isk infusion from bounties in Null Sec is far higher than that of Highsec. CCP has before stated this
Source?
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#383 - 2015-08-23 16:40:38 UTC
High Sec is fine. It is the best place to find juicy mission runners to hunt and small gang pvp fights to be had. It is also a place to store stuff for whenever your space is about to be Fozzied and you need to keep it safe. It is a great place to funnel characters into for market and central transportation.


And to the code guy making those silly claims I am laughing so hard. You absolutely need High Sec to do what you do. Without it there is no one sided safe pvp to collect your tears from lol

And there is selective inflation in this game, but every youtube video I can find when I type in Eve Online Inflation is that dry economics dude talking about how there isn't inflation and the major reason being players take their isk with them when they unsub, unlike real life where money is transferred at death to heirs and taxes.
Drakonium
Sublime Tactic
#384 - 2015-08-23 16:42:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

We have been over this before.


And you still have not found a way to accept that 100 is less than 180.

Did you even read what he wrote? He LITERALLY just explained to you why "100 is less than 180".
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#385 - 2015-08-23 16:54:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
High sec isn't the problem. The isk infusion from bounties in Null Sec is far higher than that of Highsec. CCP has before stated this
Source?



2013 Fanfest Economy Report... 2014 Fanfest Economy Report.

Bounties are #1 isk faucet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2hsqEvPGWQ

Deflation @ 6:30
Deflation @ 11:20 "Economists would normally panic at this level of deflation"

Incursions are not a problem @ 12:20

From that same display we see Bounties, and Mission Rewards. Doing some simple math we see Mission rewards is a sliver of bounties. We know how much Bounties come from Missions, therefore it is safe to surmise that there is far more Ratting than Missioning in the game as a whole. SInce we know 700+K NPCS were killed in Null, and 900k+ NPCS were killed in High, it is mathematically impossible for Missions to outweigh bounties in Null, and bounties in Highsec are tiny compared to Null.

So Null gets the award for most Bounties.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#386 - 2015-08-23 16:55:52 UTC
Drakonium wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

We have been over this before.


And you still have not found a way to accept that 100 is less than 180.

Did you even read what he wrote? He LITERALLY just explained to you why "100 is less than 180".


What, by throwing up the false flag of mineral prices? He admitted on that same page that it had nothing to do with the ship prices, and he gave examples too.

Meanwhile, with few exceptions, everything in the game has gotten more expensive. And because new player income sources either do not keep pace with inflation like low level missions, or are actively harmed by inflation and mass use like exploration, newbies find themselves with less purchasing power than ever before.

So I ask you, if you're going to defend highsec's risk vs reward imbalance, why do you hate new players? Why are you defending mechanics that hurt newbies to benefit the bloated veteran carebears?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#387 - 2015-08-23 16:58:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
2013 Fanfest Economy Report... 2014 Fanfest Economy Report.

Bounties are #1 isk faucet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2hsqEvPGWQ
So no actual source for the division of where the bounty ISK comes from.

Quote:
We know how much Bounties come from Missions
Do we? Where do we get that information?

e: AGH! Stop using the wrong draft, ******* forums! Evil
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#388 - 2015-08-23 17:17:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
2013 Fanfest Economy Report... 2014 Fanfest Economy Report.

Bounties are #1 isk faucet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2hsqEvPGWQ
So no actual source for the division of where the bounty ISK comes from.

Quote:
We know how much Bounties come from Missions
Do we? Where do we get that information?

e: AGH! Stop using the wrong draft, ******* forums! Evil



We know what the ratio of highest bounties to Mission rewards is... it isn't 200 to 1

So therefore there couldn't possibly be enough Mission Bounties in the entire game to offset even a portion of Bounties of the entire game.

We know that 40% of all NPCS are killed in Null

We know that NPCS in null have bounties multitudes higher than low and high sec.

It is simple math. Bounties in Null sec make up the majority, there just is not enough NPC kills in Highsec to overcome that.

It has also been stated a number of times in interviews by CCP devs that nullsec income is very high, its fine and that PVE activity there is very healthy. I am not going to track down every single reference for you, I don't need to. The truth is that this was just one basis of argument people made to nerf Highsec and it isn't a good argument for them to make.

What we do know is, in Highsec there are MORE players making LESS isk, and in nullsec there is LESS players making MORE isk. That is a bigger problem than this mythical "risk vs reward" metric that no one can quantify.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#389 - 2015-08-23 17:20:36 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

What we do know is, in Highsec there are MORE players making LESS isk, and in nullsec there is LESS players making MORE isk. That is a bigger problem than this mythical "risk vs reward" metric that no one can quantify.


And again, you dishonestly try to frame the discussion only in terms of raw isk, and not actual income.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#390 - 2015-08-23 17:23:32 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
2013 Fanfest Economy Report... 2014 Fanfest Economy Report.

Bounties are #1 isk faucet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2hsqEvPGWQ
So no actual source for the division of where the bounty ISK comes from.

Quote:
We know how much Bounties come from Missions
Do we? Where do we get that information?

e: AGH! Stop using the wrong draft, ******* forums! Evil



We know what the ratio of highest bounties to Mission rewards is... it isn't 200 to 1

So therefore there couldn't possibly be enough Mission Bounties in the entire game to offset even a portion of Bounties of the entire game.

We know that 40% of all NPCS are killed in Null

We know that NPCS in null have bounties multitudes higher than low and high sec.

It is simple math. Bounties in Null sec make up the majority, there just is not enough NPC kills in Highsec to overcome that.

It has also been stated a number of times in interviews by CCP devs that nullsec income is very high, its fine and that PVE activity there is very healthy. I am not going to track down every single reference for you, I don't need to. The truth is that this was just one basis of argument people made to nerf Highsec and it isn't a good argument for them to make.

What we do know is, in Highsec there are MORE players making LESS isk, and in nullsec there is LESS players making MORE isk. That is a bigger problem than this mythical "risk vs reward" metric that no one can quantify.



LP are meaningless, you heard it here first.

Actually, it's nowhere near the first: You heard this bullshit here the most recently!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#391 - 2015-08-23 17:23:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
We know what the ratio of highest bounties to Mission rewards is... it isn't 200 to 1
It doesn't have to be.

My point is very simple: the things you say that “we know” or that “CCP has said”, we do not know, and are details that CCP has never given out. So stop stating them as anything of the kind.

The most they've ever given us on the topic is an old separation of Incursion income, where some 92% came from highsec.

Quote:
What we do know is, in Highsec there are MORE players making LESS isk, and in nullsec there is LESS players making MORE isk.
Actaully, we don't even know that, because — again — we don't know the division of where the ISK comes from (and that's with the generous interpretation that, by “making” you mean “creating” rather than “earning”).

It becomes a particularly risky assumption to make if you include incursions. That's the area where they were considered a problem any why Dr EyjoG's comment missed the mark: yes, they did not cause inflation (as some claimed) for the simple reason that nothing caused inflation — the problem always was, and still is, their individual earning potential and in particular since they were almost exclusively run in highsec.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#392 - 2015-08-23 17:36:18 UTC
Actually one thing we do know is that the bounty ISK generated by missions pretty closely matches the ISK sunk by trading in LP.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#393 - 2015-08-23 17:37:47 UTC
Article about this very topic

Here is an article done this year about the very thing you are trying to disclaim. Isk faucets in this game primarily come from Null Sec Anom ratting. This article spells is out fairly well.

Remember, like Malcanis said, LP is worthless so the income one gets from that is actually a great help to the "inflation problem" because it draws isk out of the game.

The player numbers dropping this year, CCP Fozzie said were all from Highsec. He even said activity was up in nullsec. So I have no idea what you people are even complaining about. Here

Numbers were up this year in null and down in high and you still didn't get the kills you wanted, because everyone in null seems to be carebearing instead of hitting the siege button.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#394 - 2015-08-23 17:43:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Malcanis wrote:
Actually one thing we do know is that the bounty ISK generated by missions pretty closely matches the ISK sunk by trading in LP.

Close. We know that the ISK fauceted through agent rewards are pretty much instantly sunk though the LP store. That still leaves the bounties, of course, which is a far larger portion of the ISK injected.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Here is an article done this year about the very thing you are trying to disclaim.
…and it does not actually contain the data — much less any actual sources — that show the distribution you claim “we know”.
He just repeats the same unproven (unfounded, in fact, outright inaccurate) assumption about missions and goes from there.

Quote:
Remember, like Malcanis said, LP is worthless so the income one gets from that is actually a great help to the "inflation problem" because it draws isk out of the game.
You may have completely misunderstood what he was actually saying… Lol
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#395 - 2015-08-23 17:50:50 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Actually one thing we do know is that the bounty ISK generated by missions pretty closely matches the ISK sunk by trading in LP.

Close. We know that the ISK fauceted agent rewards are pretty much instantly sunk though the LP store.


Ah uh yeah now I'm not so sure I should discuss that information :/

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#396 - 2015-08-23 17:54:05 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Actually one thing we do know is that the bounty ISK generated by missions pretty closely matches the ISK sunk by trading in LP.

Close. We know that the ISK fauceted agent rewards are pretty much instantly sunk though the LP store.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Here is an article done this year about the very thing you are trying to disclaim.
…and it does not actually contain the data — much less any actual sources — that show the distribution you claim “we know”.
He just repeats the same unproven (unfounded, in fact, outright inaccurate) assumption about missions and goes from there.

Quote:
Remember, like Malcanis said, LP is worthless so the income one gets from that is actually a great help to the "inflation problem" because it draws isk out of the game.
You may have completely misunderstood what he was actually saying… Lol



I am pretty sure he was saying that LP doesn't generate any isk, it sinks it... and LP is only valued at whatever another player will give you in exchange for it...

So if you nerf an entire part of the game based on perceived income from something that has changed over time, and will change again based on market fundamentals... you are doing it wrong.

And it has never been explicitly in writing said that Null sec is the biggest isk faucet, but it has been implied many times in many interviews and the basic math would appear to back that up.

Irregardless, it is stupid to call for the removal of the most populous part of the game, and we have yet to see any good reason why it should happen.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#397 - 2015-08-23 17:55:26 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Actually one thing we do know is that the bounty ISK generated by missions pretty closely matches the ISK sunk by trading in LP.

Close. We know that the ISK fauceted agent rewards are pretty much instantly sunk though the LP store.


Ah uh yeah now I'm not so sure I should discuss that information :/



Gonna let Tipp win because of an NDA?! really Big smile

Just kidding. Can't fault that.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#398 - 2015-08-23 18:08:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
I am pretty sure he was saying that LP doesn't generate any isk, it sinks it.
I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic about how you overlook the role LP plays in income and ISK generation, seeing as how he said they were “meaningless” when he knows full well that the opposite is true.

Quote:
And it has never been explicitly in writing said that Null sec is the biggest isk faucet, but it has been implied many times in many interviews and the basic math would appear to back that up.
Then say so. Use the phrase “it seems likely” rather than “we know” or “CCP says.”

I'll give you a hint though: if you want to make that argument, don't look at bounties, since we have no way of knowing where they come from and since it's not actually very hard for missions to faucet just as much ISK as other forms of ratting do. Instead, bring up the otherwise innocuous-looking “commodities” bar in the CCP diagrams. The vast majority of that ISK comes from sleeper “blue loot” which, of course, only exists in 0.0-security space. Blink

Quote:
Irregardless
I hate you. Evil
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#399 - 2015-08-23 18:16:49 UTC
0.0 is definitely the biggest net ISK generator

I'm not sure what that demonstrates other than that a start to finish review of income generation for the game is long overdue.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#400 - 2015-08-23 18:34:51 UTC
Nah, High sec shouldn't go away.

It's nice having a "safe" place to retreat to once in awhile. To regroup, restructure without the threat of constant death and whatever.

What COULD happen though, is having the concord response timers doubled across all of empire space.

Use these drifter incursions as the framework to allow it lore-wise. Say because all 4 empires agree that it's such a serious threat, 50% of all internal policing vessels have been redirected to military commands to help protect humanity.