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CCP pls - gurista npc jams
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Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2015-08-22 14:46:00 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Well, the last mission of the level 4 Caldari Epic Arc has 4 Elite Cruisers that do Perma-Jamming which pretty much forces players to use a missile boat and FoF's to complete it.

That's just one example, there's plenty more situations like that. The overpowered perma-jam basically negates using gun ships.



DMC


Basically this. Jamming accomplishes nothing but making PvE content inaccessible for turret users. It doesn't make any sense from a game design perspective; I can think of at least 3 pirate factions (Serpentis, Sanshas, and Guristas) where there is simply no reason to use a turret ship over a drone boat.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#22 - 2015-08-22 15:12:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobaan Tali
Don't forget Bloods, jerks like to TD in some of their missions a lot, too. Blockade could still suck for gunboats (unless they actually did tone down the disruption). I'll exit Bastion on spawn 2 the next time I run it, for science!

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#23 - 2015-08-22 16:57:05 UTC
Sporx Utensil wrote:
I'm sorry to bring this up again. It's really bugging me.

Yes I can fly Ishtar Online like everyone else, but this is bad game design.

I have jacked ship racial str to over 60 using ECCMII and the low version.... the jams cannot be stopped.

Will CCP ever look into this or say something about it?


Yes there are ways around it. Yes I can deal. But I am becoming obsessed with the idea that this is exceptionally poor game design. A Sansha 10/10 is a walk in the park, a Gurista 10/10 is annoying and restricted to a tiny number of possible ships.

Sorry. Yes I'm bad, yes I'm whining, yes I should biomass myself, yes to all that. But please CCP... say something about this? It isn't fun.

ps - no you can't have my stuff.


The Maze is one of the easiest 10/10 complexes in the game. There are maybe four ships in the whole complex that use ECM. There are none in the final room. A well-fit Tengu can run The Maze very quickly. Two or three of them go through it like butter.

By the way, Marauders are awesome in sites with lots of electronic warfare - whether it is ECM, sensor dampening, or turret disruption.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#24 - 2015-08-22 16:57:54 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Well, the last mission of the level 4 Caldari Epic Arc has 4 Elite Cruisers that do Perma-Jamming which pretty much forces players to use a missile boat and FoF's to complete it.

That's just one example, there's plenty more situations like that. The overpowered perma-jam basically negates using gun ships.



DMC


Basically this. Jamming accomplishes nothing but making PvE content inaccessible for turret users. It doesn't make any sense from a game design perspective; I can think of at least 3 pirate factions (Serpentis, Sanshas, and Guristas) where there is simply no reason to use a turret ship over a drone boat.


Marauders. Bastion mode.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#25 - 2015-08-22 17:25:51 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Well, the last mission of the level 4 Caldari Epic Arc has 4 Elite Cruisers that do Perma-Jamming which pretty much forces players to use a missile boat and FoF's to complete it.

That's just one example, there's plenty more situations like that. The overpowered perma-jam basically negates using gun ships.



DMC


Basically this. Jamming accomplishes nothing but making PvE content inaccessible for turret users. It doesn't make any sense from a game design perspective; I can think of at least 3 pirate factions (Serpentis, Sanshas, and Guristas) where there is simply no reason to use a turret ship over a drone boat.


Marauders. Bastion mode.


Won't work for him Diomedes. He's too impatient to do the long train time. Apparently he has never trained for a Carrier or Dread.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#26 - 2015-08-22 17:36:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Basically this. Jamming accomplishes nothing but making PvE content inaccessible for turret users.

Well tracking disrupting sansha also makes no sense for turret users, if you have missiles or drones you're ok with sansha.
With a bastion paladin your optimal+falloff falls from 91km to 7km, that's how OP tracking disruption is with sansha's npc's.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#27 - 2015-08-22 17:46:11 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Basically this. Jamming accomplishes nothing but making PvE content inaccessible for turret users.

Well tracking disrupting sansha also makes no sense for turret users, if you have missiles or drones you're ok with sansha.
With a bastion paladin your optimal+falloff falls from 91km to 7km, that's how OP tracking disruption is with sansha's npc's.


What crack are you on? Tracking disruption does not work on a Paladin in bastion mode.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#28 - 2015-08-22 17:52:21 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Spc One wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Basically this. Jamming accomplishes nothing but making PvE content inaccessible for turret users.

Well tracking disrupting sansha also makes no sense for turret users, if you have missiles or drones you're ok with sansha.
With a bastion paladin your optimal+falloff falls from 91km to 7km, that's how OP tracking disruption is with sansha's npc's.


What crack are you on? Tracking disruption does not work on a Paladin in bastion mode.

Yes but i am only saying that if you have 91km range, it gets down to 7km, if you're not immune to EW.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#29 - 2015-08-22 17:54:31 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Well, the last mission of the level 4 Caldari Epic Arc has 4 Elite Cruisers that do Perma-Jamming which pretty much forces players to use a missile boat and FoF's to complete it.

That's just one example, there's plenty more situations like that. The overpowered perma-jam basically negates using gun ships.



DMC


Basically this. Jamming accomplishes nothing but making PvE content inaccessible for turret users. It doesn't make any sense from a game design perspective; I can think of at least 3 pirate factions (Serpentis, Sanshas, and Guristas) where there is simply no reason to use a turret ship over a drone boat.


Marauders. Bastion mode.


Won't work for him Diomedes. He's too impatient to do the long train time. Apparently he has never trained for a Carrier or Dread.


heh with the old skill system training for a dread pretty much trained you for marauders too. Main reason I got to marauders when I did.. funny enough I never actually got a dread.

with bloods I'm pretty sure their tracking disruption doesn't work at their inital spawn range and you can kill them before that... maybe I'm thinking about the nos, as either way I'd have been in a paladin, I think I tried it without bastion once or twice. Sansha not sure, I generally avoid them.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Hulk Miner
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2015-08-22 18:07:04 UTC
The NPC jams topic has been revived numerous times over the years. From what I recall maybe 7 or 8 years since unless its been tweaked by CCP in any way, is when an NPC locks you it has a 50/50 chance of spamming you with some form of electronic attack.

ECCM does **** all against NPC

Its annoying but I don't see why it should be changed to make the ISK per hour crew happy. NPC's are only defending themselves.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2015-08-22 22:35:47 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Well, the last mission of the level 4 Caldari Epic Arc has 4 Elite Cruisers that do Perma-Jamming which pretty much forces players to use a missile boat and FoF's to complete it.

That's just one example, there's plenty more situations like that. The overpowered perma-jam basically negates using gun ships.



DMC


Basically this. Jamming accomplishes nothing but making PvE content inaccessible for turret users. It doesn't make any sense from a game design perspective; I can think of at least 3 pirate factions (Serpentis, Sanshas, and Guristas) where there is simply no reason to use a turret ship over a drone boat.


Marauders. Bastion mode.


Won't work for him Diomedes. He's too impatient to do the long train time. Apparently he has never trained for a Carrier or Dread.


Actually I just use a drone boat or decline perma-jam missions. Which is my point - NPC ewar accomplishes nothing except to make drone boats the superior choice for yet another environment.
Sporx Utensil
Colossus Enterprises
#32 - 2015-08-22 23:36:01 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Actually I just use a drone boat or decline perma-jam missions. Which is my point - NPC ewar accomplishes nothing except to make drone boats the superior choice for yet another environment.


Ya. That was my point as well - it's not about isk per hour or some other nonsense people are posting. it's about Ishtars Online.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#33 - 2015-08-23 03:23:44 UTC
Hulk Miner wrote:
ECCM does **** all against NPC


Not true! that line was said by CCPers, yet disproved by players. Sensor strength and NPC jam strength matter.

Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Actually I just use a drone boat or decline perma-jam missions. Which is my point - NPC ewar accomplishes nothing except to make drone boats the superior choice for yet another environment.


examples? I've run missions for years in caldari space and permajams pretty much never happen.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#34 - 2015-08-24 00:38:24 UTC
I've been screwing around on a brand new character for the past month, a Caldari guy. Just to see what it's like to be a noob these days. The jams in the Guristas Refuge anoms were so annoying I decided to train Gallente frigates and drones and use a Tristan. Threw my Merlin away.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#35 - 2015-08-24 13:14:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Sporx Utensil wrote:
I'm sorry to bring this up again. It's really bugging me.

Yes I can fly Ishtar Online like everyone else, but this is bad game design.

I have jacked ship racial str to over 60 using ECCMII and the low version.... the jams cannot be stopped.

Will CCP ever look into this or say something about it?


Yes there are ways around it. Yes I can deal. But I am becoming obsessed with the idea that this is exceptionally poor game design. A Sansha 10/10 is a walk in the park, a Gurista 10/10 is annoying and restricted to a tiny number of possible ships.

Sorry. Yes I'm bad, yes I'm whining, yes I should biomass myself, yes to all that. But please CCP... say something about this? It isn't fun.

ps - no you can't have my stuff.


Someone has never heard of the Guristas line of pirate ships. You know, the Gila and Rattlesnake that can use drones and FoF missiles and laugh at jams...


Also, given how Guristas deadspace gear prices have fallen through the floor, it seems Guristas aren't jamming enough lol.
Sporx Utensil
Colossus Enterprises
#36 - 2015-08-24 17:50:11 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Someone has never heard of the Guristas line of pirate ships. You know, the Gila and Rattlesnake that can use drones and FoF missiles and laugh at jams...


You obviously didn't read the thread.

This is about Ishtar Online and the homogenization of ships in gurista space pve.

Its also about CCP saying 'most pve damage is done by drones, so nerf drones', when the reason it is done by drones is because it is the only viable weapon system against jam chains.

It is also about newbros in PVE who quickly learn that its Ishtar Online and must train drones straight away.

Nobody is saying the jams are difficult to circumvent.

Ishtar Online.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#37 - 2015-08-24 18:09:14 UTC
Sporx Utensil wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Someone has never heard of the Guristas line of pirate ships. You know, the Gila and Rattlesnake that can use drones and FoF missiles and laugh at jams...


You obviously didn't read the thread.

This is about Ishtar Online and the homogenization of ships in gurista space pve.

Its also about CCP saying 'most pve damage is done by drones, so nerf drones', when the reason it is done by drones is because it is the only viable weapon system against jam chains.

It is also about newbros in PVE who quickly learn that its Ishtar Online and must train drones straight away.

Nobody is saying the jams are difficult to circumvent.

Ishtar Online.


At what point in time was it different. When I started playing I was told "use drones for Guristas, take a sensor booster for serpentis, kill blood raiders at range or use a cap booster set up, they neut, and avoid turret ships against blood raiders and sansha, they tracking disrupt, don't use small ships against angels, the target paint".

You are complaining about something that has always been the case, mainly because you live in guristas space. ECM is nothing compared to what blood raiders will do to you in their 10/10, i wish I could pop out some drones or pop in some fof missiles in blood space, but no, can't take a tengu or ishtar into the blood 10.10 like you can the guristas 10/10.

Come back and complain about how terrible Gursitas jamming is after doing Blood Raide Temple complex and the like.

Guristas are the second easiest rats to kill after Serpentis. You have PERFECT tools to combat them (ishtars, tengus, gila/rattlesnake, Armageddon, Typhoon Fleet Issue, Dominix, All the Raven and Scorpion class ships etc etc) where as most ofther races of rats force even fewer choices of ship to take.

I live in Angel space right now (over the last 8 years, i've lived in every npc pirate region), when using battleships to PVE, angel ewar is a joke. What isn't a joke is the massive amounts of damn near omni damage they spew at you and how much you have to tank your ships to survive unless you speed tank. If Guristas loot wasn't so over farmed, I'd trade you angel space for guristas space in a flat second.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you are complaining about nothing. Don't like jamms? Get the appropriate implant set, double ECCM your turret ship (or use an alt/friend to remote ECCM you and stop worrying about it.
Sporx Utensil
Colossus Enterprises
#38 - 2015-08-24 18:21:02 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

You're entitled to your opinion, but you are complaining about nothing.


I know from seeing your posts over the years that arguing or debating with you is useless pigeon chess.

We just disagree.

I think it is an issue because it severely homogenizes the game more than any other npc mechanic, and I think that is bad for the game.

You don't see that as a problem. Understood.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#39 - 2015-08-24 20:05:12 UTC
It's not an issue. Certain ships are best for certain rats. That is how it has been in EVE since I started playing, and has always been the case. I got tired of the jamming and moved to Gallente space, where the chances of getting a Guristas mission is very low. Now I fly Marauders and I don't worry about EWAR at all except for neuting.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#40 - 2015-08-24 21:44:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Sporx Utensil wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

You're entitled to your opinion, but you are complaining about nothing.


I know from seeing your posts over the years that arguing or debating with you is useless pigeon chess.

We just disagree.

I think it is an issue because it severely homogenizes the game more than any other npc mechanic, and I think that is bad for the game.

You don't see that as a problem. Understood.


No, we don't just disagree. You are measurably incorrect. As others have explained to you, the same thing happens with every NPC race (even drones, even though they don't do ewar, ships that do EM damage have an advantage against them due to resists).

Just because you don't know how to counter a thing (or just plain don't like a thing) doesn't mean that thing is broken, modern ecm is nothing like what it used to be. And as has been said, countering jamming (via fit and implants) is much easier than countering other kinds of Ewar (fly a mach like I do and try to fit enough tracking mods to counter the tracking disruption in the Sansha 10/10 for example, you can lower jam chance, you can't totally negate tracking disruption).

I'm willing to bet you haven't even tried most of the things/ships we;'ve talked about here, and things he haven't. I'd love to see Guristas jam a smart bombing battleship for example.
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