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CCP pls - gurista npc jams
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Sporx Utensil
Colossus Enterprises
#1 - 2015-08-21 20:27:29 UTC
I'm sorry to bring this up again. It's really bugging me.

Yes I can fly Ishtar Online like everyone else, but this is bad game design.

I have jacked ship racial str to over 60 using ECCMII and the low version.... the jams cannot be stopped.

Will CCP ever look into this or say something about it?


Yes there are ways around it. Yes I can deal. But I am becoming obsessed with the idea that this is exceptionally poor game design. A Sansha 10/10 is a walk in the park, a Gurista 10/10 is annoying and restricted to a tiny number of possible ships.

Sorry. Yes I'm bad, yes I'm whining, yes I should biomass myself, yes to all that. But please CCP... say something about this? It isn't fun.

ps - no you can't have my stuff.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#2 - 2015-08-21 21:01:31 UTC
You have to know, all npc's cheat, they have super modules so they will always jam you no matter what you do.
Also an example, normal sansha rats in nightmares also shoot cruise missiles, which you can't fit on a nightmare.
Sporx Utensil
Colossus Enterprises
#3 - 2015-08-21 21:17:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Sporx Utensil
Spc One wrote:
You have to know, all npc's cheat, they have super modules so they will always jam you no matter what you do.
Also an example, normal sansha rats in nightmares also shoot cruise missiles, which you can't fit on a nightmare.


Thanks. Ya I know... but the the logic of it is what is annoying me. How is it fun? How is it engaging gameplay? Chain jams while your drones shoot everything but the jammer(s) is not fun.

I realize Ishtar Online is a thing... but that's bad game design. BAD.

The current theme is just 'drones required, and those target everything but the jammers.'

I just don't get it.

I just don't get it.

EVERYONE is flying the same ships in gurista space

It's a clown show, a demonstration of game design gone wrong.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#4 - 2015-08-21 21:19:54 UTC
Sporx Utensil wrote:
Spc One wrote:
You have to know, all npc's cheat, they have super modules so they will always jam you no matter what you do.
Also an example, normal sansha rats in nightmares also shoot cruise missiles, which you can't fit on a nightmare.


Thanks. Ya I know... but the the logic of it is what is annoying me. How is it fun? How is it engaging gameplay? Chain jams while your drones shoot everything but the jammer(s) is not fun.

I realize Ishtar Online is a thing... but that's bad game design. BAD. It required drones (or and/or FoF missiles if you're a clown) and those target everything but the jammers.

I just don't get it.

I just don't get it.


FoF missiles go for the closest target.
Sporx Utensil
Colossus Enterprises
#5 - 2015-08-21 21:23:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Sporx Utensil
Estella Osoka wrote:


FoF missiles go for the closest target.


I didn't actually know their target selection criteria, so thanks. I'm guessing they choose the closest target at target selection time, and stay on that target until it's killed?
Amanda Chan
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-08-22 00:47:59 UTC
Don't like ewar? Use a marauder. Bastion mode grants ewar immunity. Complain about gurista 10/10? Have a look at blood raider 10/10.
Sporx Utensil
Colossus Enterprises
#7 - 2015-08-22 01:16:52 UTC
Amanda Chan wrote:
Don't like ewar? Use a marauder. Bastion mode grants ewar immunity. Complain about gurista 10/10? Have a look at blood raider 10/10.





Fair and solid points, both. I forget about the Blood Raiders, sorry.

Really though, I just remain confused about the game design element of this mechanic. The result of the mechanic is that everyone in gurista space flies the same few ships.

There was a recent dev blog pre-ishtar nerf in which some ccp'er was talking about most player damage done to npcs was drones, thus nerfbat to drones. But really, the reason most of the damage to npc is done by drones in gurista space is because THAT'S WHAT THERE IS TO USE AGAINST JAM CHAINS.

And so it is. Ishtar/Tengu(DS) online because that's the way CCP wants it.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#8 - 2015-08-22 02:39:49 UTC
Sporx Utensil wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:


FoF missiles go for the closest target.


I didn't actually know their target selection criteria, so thanks. I'm guessing they choose the closest target at target selection time, and stay on that target until it's killed?


just whatever the closest target is. and yes that can change every volley.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#9 - 2015-08-22 02:47:08 UTC
Sporx Utensil wrote:
Amanda Chan wrote:
Don't like ewar? Use a marauder. Bastion mode grants ewar immunity. Complain about gurista 10/10? Have a look at blood raider 10/10.





Fair and solid points, both. I forget about the Blood Raiders, sorry.

Really though, I just remain confused about the game design element of this mechanic. The result of the mechanic is that everyone in gurista space flies the same few ships.

There was a recent dev blog pre-ishtar nerf in which some ccp'er was talking about most player damage done to npcs was drones, thus nerfbat to drones. But really, the reason most of the damage to npc is done by drones in gurista space is because THAT'S WHAT THERE IS TO USE AGAINST JAM CHAINS.

And so it is. Ishtar/Tengu(DS) online because that's the way CCP wants it.


ishtars and tengus have awesome resists to guristas, not to mention can easily speed/sig tank gurista missiles. They also shoot the right damage type. no one wants to shoot guristas in a zealot. I don't think there is a better cruiser or bc sized hull than the ishtar or tengu for shooting guristas, and that doesn't even account for ECM.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Sporx Utensil
Colossus Enterprises
#10 - 2015-08-22 03:04:27 UTC
> I don't think there is a better cruiser or bc sized hull than the ishtar or tengu for shooting guristas


We agree.

But the Ishtar is eminently more plentiful because it handles the jams problem w/aggressive drones, and is much cheaper than the tengu. Then rattle (sentry bonuses).

Ishtar puts out good dps, easy to train into, drones are quite survivable, all good.

Ishtar good ship.
TenguDS good ship.
Rattle good ship.

Want to fly something else? enjoy the chain jams.

Maybe that's the way it is supposed to be.
Just seems lame to me.
Maybe I'm lame, is the problem. I just don't like game designs like this.

I am so tired of Ishtars.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#11 - 2015-08-22 06:17:38 UTC
Well try to train for marauders, they're the only ones that are immune to npc ecm in high sec
Sporx Utensil
Colossus Enterprises
#12 - 2015-08-22 06:35:22 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Well try to train for marauders, they're the only ones that are immune to npc ecm in high sec


agree but i can already fly them and where i fly you can't be in bastion mode... ever. death or multi hours lmjd crawl until death becomes more attractive
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#13 - 2015-08-22 06:38:21 UTC
Sporx Utensil wrote:
Spc One wrote:
Well try to train for marauders, they're the only ones that are immune to npc ecm in high sec


agree but i can already fly them and where i fly you can't be in bastion mode... ever. death or multi hours lmjd crawl until death becomes more attractive

If it is low sec or 0.0 then yes bastion will kill you.
Sporx Utensil
Colossus Enterprises
#14 - 2015-08-22 06:40:52 UTC
Spc One wrote:

If it is low sec or 0.0 then yes bastion will kill you.


ya
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2015-08-22 08:27:45 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
I agree with the OP, the Guristas Perma-Jam has been an issue for a long time. In fact, I vaguely remember CCP saying something about fixing that issue a while ago. Guess that's not the case anymore.

I thought the whole reason for the Ship Re-balance was to make each Factions ship class equal to each other. That would have been great if it was done right, especially for players who RP and want to stay with their own Racial ships.

One thing is for sure, players shouldn't have to cross train other Factions ship skills just to partake in PvE content.

Anyway, guess we now know which ships are the Dev's favorite.



DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#16 - 2015-08-22 11:48:00 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
I agree with the OP, the Guristas Perma-Jam has been an issue for a long time. In fact, I vaguely remember CCP saying something about fixing that issue a while ago. Guess that's not the case anymore.

I thought the whole reason for the Ship Re-balance was to make each Factions ship class equal to each other. That would have been great if it was done right, especially for players who RP and want to stay with their own Racial ships.

One thing is for sure, players shouldn't have to cross train other Factions ship skills just to partake in PvE content.

Anyway, guess we now know which ships are the Dev's favorite.



DMC


Last thing I remember about Gurista jammers was when they altered the rat AI to switch targets more consistently. The alterations biffed up NPC EWAR and caused EWAR rats to go f'ing nuts. CCP had to make further alterations to what they changed and to several missions -- namely dropping and replacing several normally EWAR rat spawns -- to correct the issue. That was a while ago, though. Haven't heard anything recently regarding NPC EWAR being a mess again. I guess me being in a Marauder so much has spoiled me...naughty Golem.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-08-22 11:52:10 UTC
Ever think that maybe, just maybe, 10/10 complexes were not intended to be solo content?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2015-08-22 12:15:32 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Well, the last mission of the level 4 Caldari Epic Arc has 4 Elite Cruisers that do Perma-Jamming which pretty much forces players to use a missile boat and FoF's to complete it.

That's just one example, there's plenty more situations like that. The overpowered perma-jam basically negates using gun ships.



DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Amanda Chan
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-08-22 13:31:49 UTC
Sporx Utensil wrote:
Spc One wrote:

If it is low sec or 0.0 then yes bastion will kill you.


ya


I don't fully agree with that. There's couple of factors.
1) Are you doing solo work or do you have blues near by? If your doing solo then yes a marauder is a poor choice but if you have blues near by. You can easily beast mode a small gang for several minutes while backup arrives. Hell you could carry a cyno and light it if you get jumped. 9/10 the risk averse will run away for fear of a blops/hot drop. After all, a marauder is wonderful bait.

2) Intel channels work wonders. Knowing somebody if coming into your area several systems away gives you plenty of notice.

3) MJD will break all tackle but scrams.(I'm assuming a infinite point would shut it off but not sure).

4) You don't NEED to be in bastion mode 90% of the time. Only to kill the jammers of a spawn or to rep yourself to a healthy level.

Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Ever think that maybe, just maybe, 10/10 complexes were not intended to be solo content?


And yet they are solo'd and quite often. Either by a solo skilled marauder pilot or multi-boxers.

At the end of the day there's no "perfect" ship. Just a pile of options to choose what's best for you and your wallet.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2015-08-22 14:42:05 UTC
I have long thought that PvE was kinda broken vis-a-vis ewar. I recall struggling in level 4 missions with a rail megathron up against both near-permanently jamming Caldari rats and perma-damping Serpentis reducing my range to 20k. Then I trained into the Ishtar and laughed at every bit of ewar ever. The ewar use in PvE content, as it stands now, doesn't really add anything unique or challenging to the game. All it does is create yet another incentive to use drones and thus completely ignore all forms of ewar. Marauders, sure - That's something like a 90 day train for the hull alone, not to mention supporting weapon systems. Why bother when I can be running a drone boat with 3/4 the DPS, greater range and greater versatility for 1/5 the cost in half the time?

I frankly think jamming is rather stupid and boring compared to all other forms of ewar anyway, as it just shuts down everything with no drawbacks. But that's another discussion entirely.
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