These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Sojourn: The Federation
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#21 - 2015-08-16 15:56:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Lyn Farel wrote:
I as told you yersterday, and that is only my belief and the conclusions I have drawn from all those years spent living in Caille...

The Crystal Dream is often just a facade. Megas run the Federation as well as the megas run the Caldari State. They just do not do it here through the same tools. The paradigm is libertarian where in the State it is authoritarian. But roots are governed by ultracapitalistic free markets all the same. The same free markets that now rule New Eden international exchanges.

Maybe even more so in the Federation that taught everything to the Caldari, including the identity they chose for themselves today, as we were talking about free will and its futility. The Caldari became what they are only due to their live spent inside the Federation.

If there is one thing that the Federation has for itself, besides its capacity for instability and democratic unpredictability, is that it can not really be beheaded. Nothing is truly centralized. If the Caldari State is a cold mountain, then the Federation is the rain, the rivers, and the oceans that eroded it and shaped it.

The question's more one of culture than of power structure, suuolo. And it's not a question of remaining unchanged.

It's a question of what holds together during desperate times.

The Caldari look at life as a crucible, a test. It's a harsh view of the world, and it makes them difficult people to live with, sometimes, but it also prepares them really well for hardship. They lost their homeworld-- nearly lost their core population, even-- but they struggled through it, found their footing. They survived. I don't think all the lessons they learned from that were good ones, but....

If The Citadel were to fall, I don't doubt there'd be colony ships setting out for distant stars even as surviving forces regrouped and prepared for an extended campaign to defend the surviving colonies. The Caldari would survive; it's kind of what they do.

The Amarr are bound together by a common faith. It's a conqueror's faith, maybe, but it's also a powerful uniting force, and the Empire's more resilient and agile than my old self gave it credit for. I'm still a little worried for them if things go really badly, though; Vak'Atioth was a serious shock, and it wasn't that major a loss, numerically. Then again, they weathered the Elder Fleet okay, but I do wonder how things might have played out if the whole Empire didn't feel itself to have witnessed a miracle at the end of that.

The Amarrian faith is strong, and quite beautiful, but I worry it's not unbreakable.

The Matari ... I don't know. They faced the worst, and survived, but as prisoners who eventually rebelled. ... Maybe they've grown stronger, since. I haven't properly visited the Republic yet.

So who "really" runs the Federation isn't really relevant except as it bears on the question: "Is this stable? Will this last? Can we really live like this, indefinitely?

"If the worst comes, will we be ready for it?"

The issue of megacorporations and democracy is just a question of who's running the show, and ... well, I kind of don't care very much. Powerful people will play power games.

I'm more worried about what happens when the tent starts collapsing.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2015-08-16 16:29:18 UTC
Oh right, I think I got what you said in the first message, but just... mused over it... My apologies...

Although if there is a single point that could be kept from my own post is that last one: the strenght of the Federation that might allow it to survive is precisely its perpetually undefined, flowing, moving, changing state. You can smash water all the way you want, you will not break it.

You will just make it change. It might lose half its volume, it might turn into gas, or ice, and so become something very different in itself, true... That is where lies the real weakness.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#23 - 2015-08-17 04:12:06 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:

Maybe even more so in the Federation that taught everything to the Caldari, including the identity they chose for themselves today, as we were talking about free will and its futility. The Caldari became what they are only due to their live spent inside the Federation.

If there is one thing that the Federation has for itself, besides its capacity for instability and democratic unpredictability, is that it can not really be beheaded. Nothing is truly centralized. If the Caldari State is a cold mountain, then the Federation is the rain, the rivers, and the oceans that eroded it and shaped it.

I'm sorry for interrupting your wonderful journal with this Jenneth-haani, but I thought I should. I won't write more on it than this one entry.

The relationship that we have with the Gallente is complex. It's very true that the State is shaped by the Federation, but it's not true to say that they shaped everything that we are, and that they formed our identity - though I understand how it might seem that way.

Before the Gallente arrived, we formed - well, the word iristaa is based on the older word, which means something more like 'guild'. These guilds had very long lineages, historical alliances, political interactions, and all of the normal interactions between groups of people. A number of empires rose and fell - the Raata being the most well-known and the largest, but it was only one, and through it all, we organized into these groups.

And we still do! The Gallente introduced changes, but we've always organized in groups of like-minded individuals who have tried to better ourselves. Much of what made Tibus Heths' popularity called for us to discard those things the Gallente gave us, and I can't say that it would be that bad to do that.

Many of our corporations don't follow their lineages closely, but many of us, especially within the Patriot bloc, do. My own lineage is by Lai Dai Research Biomedical and Cybernetic; renamed by the purchase of Lonetrek Biomedical Research, inc. by the Lai Dai Research Group; which was previously Lonetrek Medical Services; which had assisted the evacuation of the homeworld as Glacier Spring Medical Services; which was previously Keminmaa Hearth and Home; which was incorporated from the Autumn-Leaves-Guild during the Great Northern Incorporation Period. At least, that's the simple lineage.

No doubt Caldari from other places will disagree with me, but this is my understanding of the matter. Perhaps I'm just being defensive? It's hard to hear someone, especially an outsider, say that everything we've built is owed to the Gallente. We are ourselves, and always have been.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2015-08-17 12:28:59 UTC
I did not mean that the Federation shaped everything about the Caldari... I am sorry I expressed myself badly...
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-08-17 12:36:03 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
I did not mean that the Federation shaped everything about the Caldari... I am sorry I expressed myself badly...


I would say that they have (and continue) to shape each other. Neither would exist in it's current form without the other and both have their good and bad points. Rather than the continuous 'phoney' war between the two I would rather see them work out their differences and work together for their mutual benefit. Such an alliance could achieve so much...
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#26 - 2015-08-19 19:48:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
The sentiment expressed by every imperialist apologist, that those they oppress should be thankful for their repression because they are given, "Civilization," appears to remain strong within the Federation. The hypocrisy of Gallentean nationalists that deny and decry Caldari self-determination while at the same time abhorring multiculturalism and foreign immigration within the borders of the Federation is a long tradition maintained from Duvailer and Harner to Blaque and Roden. The natural order of the Federation for such men is one in which other cultures and societies are kept segregated and weak, existing as nothing more than the thankful protectorates of their Gallentean Empire by another name. The racial prejudices and hatreds of men such as Karin Midular's assassin, Gerne Broteau, is a reflection of the colonialist and Gallente-nationalist attitudes of the Federation and its political leadership who continue to enjoy popular support.

The parochial notion that the Federation is responsible for what the Caldari people are today is only true insofar as that in being a Gallente colonial and imperialist enterprise that the Caldari people deemed as not in their own interest to be part of, then catalyzed the formation of the modern State to best represent Caldari interests. However, since the Federation only existed for thirty years prior to the formation of the Caldari State then what is really meant is the belief that the Gallente are responsible for what the Caldari are today. Which is hard to believe when one considers that in the six centuries between the activation of stargates in Luminaire to the formation of the Caldari State it was the Caldari people who settled and terraformed the worlds that are today in Lonetrek, The Citadel and The Forge. It was Caldari corporations and firms that funded these enterprises and raised Caldari worlds from bare subsistence to prosperity. It was Caldari corporations that Caldari populations worked for, gave their loyalty to, and identified with.

The only thing the Federation was responsible for was that in their attempts to reduce Caldari corporations and worlds to client-states that it could exploit in the economic and political interests of the Gallente it made self-determination through the formation of the Caldari State as the only means to prevent future subjugation and lives of servitude to an imperialist master.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#27 - 2015-08-20 07:53:12 UTC
Is that from a propaganda outlet ? For the purpose of academic study, I would be interested to know more...
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#28 - 2015-08-20 08:31:04 UTC
I would say it is my own fair and balanced personal opinion. I leave the counterfactual propaganda to the Gallente media and its vapid consumers of liberal apologia.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
Gnawthority
#29 - 2015-08-20 09:33:47 UTC
Veik, I hope you can see the irony in your previous statement.

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-08-20 09:39:18 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
...

The only thing the Federation was responsible for was that in their attempts to reduce Caldari corporations and worlds to client-states that it could exploit in the economic and political interests of the Gallente it made self-determination through the formation of the Caldari State as the only means to prevent future subjugation and lives of servitude to an imperialist master.


The Federation acted as any of the Empires would in the event of a large group of the populace deciding they wanted more for themselves than they were currently getting and then attempting to secede from the ruling state. I very much doubt that if for example the Intaki areas of Caldari space decided they wished to be independent the Mega-Corps would just say 'Sure go ahead, after all it would be hypocritical to stop you...'.

If you believe that any of the Empires are better or worse than any of the others you are deluded. They will all act to protect and if possible extend their power base whenever and wherever they can and/or must. This is why I choose to remove myself from such politics wherever I can.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#31 - 2015-08-20 16:10:38 UTC
But you are still doing it right now, sir... ?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-08-20 16:31:38 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
But you are still doing it right now, sir... ?



No longer, not since I realized they are all as bad as each other. Now I focus on clearing pirates from any Empire space I am traveling through (yes, even Amarr. How can citizens of Amarr realize slavery is wrong if they are dead...).
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#33 - 2015-08-21 00:50:35 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
No longer, not since I realized they are all as bad as each other.

Or as good, respectfully?

I'm not sure it's possible for a major nation state to be "good" from most people's point of view.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#34 - 2015-08-21 03:24:29 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
]So here's the scenario.

Supposing the Federation achieves everything it wants: slavery abolished; Amarr and the State liberalized; the Republic a proper democracy-- and in time, all of humanity united in an individualistic dream of peace, democracy, and freedom.

And this is when the hammer blow falls.

The Caldari, forever either preparing for or enduring winter, faced such a time and survived. The Amarr have never faced such a time, but they have their faith to unite them. ... But both are gone. Perhaps the Matari, in their long time enduring servitude, might have learned tricks that would survive the transfer to democracy, but....

50/50. That's what it would probably come down to.

That the Federation is as attractive and brittle as the crystal it so loves: that is the fear. That we could lose what makes us strong and resilient as we're drawn into an idealistic dream that can't be depended upon in the long run.

That's the dread: that democracy's not a stable system under pressure; that the Federation might bring us to a place where we are happy, and doomed.

That I could be drawn into such an attractive, toxic dream, and be unable to escape it.

The Federation's beauty and comfort is not much of a surprise. I'm hoping to find something here that will improve my estimation of the odds.

If this goal is ever achieved then all the hardships endured by the Caldari and Minmatar will be preserved, as will the faith of the Amarr. The goal isn't to strip away cultural individuality and strength, but include it in our own to strengthen it.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2015-08-21 04:22:30 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
If this goal is ever achieved then all the hardships endured by the Caldari and Minmatar will be preserved, as will the faith of the Amarr. The goal isn't to strip away cultural individuality and strength, but include it in our own to strengthen it.


Ms. Osyn, a part of the Caldari kind of strength is the willingness to sacrifice people who can't contribute, to ensure that a community survives. People who can't help everyone stay alive are tossed out in the snow to fend for themselves.

They do it even when they don't strictly have to. It's why the "nonentity" caste exists. They're people who've had their "person" status revoked. They're not seen as valuable, so the Caldari kick them out.

It's something Caldari Prime's hardships taught them to do. They'd say they're stronger for it.

Do you agree?





Warm, gentle acid corrodes just the same.

This is something many Caldari believe about your Federation. Whether it is a fair description is something I hope to learn.

But ...

My fear of the Federation's capacity to dissolve and corrode is balanced with another: being so blinded by dread that I can't see clearly.

I started these travels with the Amarr because they were easier for me to approach without fear ... or hate. That was partly because I knew much less about them. My personal experiences were lost, but I still "know" everything my antecedent did about the Federation.

What I "know" is like a crawling, insinuating, sapient mist that creeps in through cracks and crevices, and infects everything it touches with a seeping poison that slowly breaks structure down into vapor. Nothing's immune, and the poison can only be extracted or neutralized slowly, with great pain. But the dissolving is usually painless-- the horror of it is watching yourself dissolve.

It doesn't want you to suffer, so it tries to go for the eyes, first. So you won't see.

It does all this because it cares. It loves everything and everyone. It wants everything to be free.

You're the heroes of your own holoflick. We get that.

You're the monster in ours.

I try to ignore all that. But it's really, really hard for me to look at this place with clear eyes.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#36 - 2015-08-21 04:57:20 UTC
iyammarrok wrote:
Veik, I hope you can see the irony in your previous statement.


It is often difficult to distinguish between the words of an extremist and the words of those who would parody or caricature an extremist.

There is probably truth in what I wrote, but it was also deliberately distorted. As to which points I was being disingenuous with, that would be up to the personal exegesis of a reader, if it all. The more likely outcome however is just the confirmation of personal bias.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#37 - 2015-08-21 05:10:59 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Ms. Osyn, a part of the Caldari kind of strength is the willingness to sacrifice people who can't contribute, to ensure that a community survives. People who can't help everyone stay alive are tossed out in the snow to fend for themselves.

They do it even when they don't strictly have to. It's why the "nonentity" caste exists. They're people who've had their "person" status revoked. They're not seen as valuable, so the Caldari kick them out.

It's something Caldari Prime's hardships taught them to do. They'd say they're stronger for it.

Do you agree?
I'd say it left them with the useful ability to make hard decisions, and the sad side effect of making them even when they need not be made.




Aria Jenneth wrote:
Warm, gentle acid corrodes just the same.
.
Cold, harsh winds are just as bad.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#38 - 2015-08-21 05:57:08 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
I'd say it left them with the useful ability to make hard decisions, and the sad side effect of making them even when they need not be made.


I'm not sure there's a time they don't think hard decisions are appropriate. For the Caldari, it's like staying in shape-- if you want to be able to run a long way without tiring, you run a lot even when you don't need to.

If the Caldari stopped making hard decisions in times of plenty, would they still be able to make them at need?

Quote:
Cold, harsh winds are just as bad.


But for what? Surviving is the goal, for the Caldari. As long as they can survive whatever the universe throws at them, everything else is secondary.

... and it's not as though the insinuating acid and the harsh wind are at odds. Your walls fall down, then the wind freezes you: that's exactly what the Caldari are afraid of.



I think I'm going to try to resist saying anything more right now, Ms. Osyn. If you want to respond, that's okay, but ...

... I don't think we're going to resolve this here. And I don't want to have Aria's-- that is, my antecedent's-- ideas about the Federation engraved into my head any more deeply than they already are.

I've dwelled on this more than was probably good for me, already.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-08-21 09:10:09 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
... But it's really, really hard for me to look at this place with clear eyes.


Do not look at the political structures and policies, but rather look at the people, the cultures, the histories, the architecture, the arts, everything else that forms the Federation. The true Federation is formed not from the power base that governs but from the myriad lives that form the populace. It is here that you see the true face of the Federation and here that you will find the heart of those that form it.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#40 - 2015-08-21 09:14:42 UTC
But you will have to face those ingrained prejudices sooner or later in that sojourn, right...?