These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Galatea] First batch of sov capture iterations

First post First post
Author
Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#801 - 2015-08-21 01:21:37 UTC
Querns wrote:

The implication here that we don't need nor could utilize our current holdings is laughable. Check the ADMs across Imperium space; besides the areas currently undergoing sov transfer in "western" (dotlan projection) Pure Blind, everything is well-utilized.

if it's "well utilised" then i'm not sure why we are having this discussion, troll ceptors won't be able to do a thing
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#802 - 2015-08-21 01:28:17 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
It also required a fair amount of effort. Those fleets were 40+ people, instead of 1 guy in a trollceptor. Instead of 5 guys in dreads, it was a swarm of guys in something cheaper, grinding the sov more slowly.

It's about the effort of the attacker. The goons put forth effort (20man/hours per structure or so) to take out a structure.

why should taking something that no one needs enough to bother defending it require much effort?


Agreed. We should have a man/hr number somewhere in the middle.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#803 - 2015-08-21 01:31:49 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
Querns wrote:

The implication here that we don't need nor could utilize our current holdings is laughable. Check the ADMs across Imperium space; besides the areas currently undergoing sov transfer in "western" (dotlan projection) Pure Blind, everything is well-utilized.

if it's "well utilised" then i'm not sure why we are having this discussion, troll ceptors won't be able to do a thing

We actually don't have much problem with them at all -- the only group that actually tries to RF our stuff uses 500mn omens instead.

We're allowed to be proactive with this sort of thing. This is usually the first step in helping the game, and failing the acceptance of our eternal beatitude, abusing the mechanic so hard that change is forced.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#804 - 2015-08-21 01:35:13 UTC
Querns wrote:
Warmeister wrote:
Querns wrote:

The implication here that we don't need nor could utilize our current holdings is laughable. Check the ADMs across Imperium space; besides the areas currently undergoing sov transfer in "western" (dotlan projection) Pure Blind, everything is well-utilized.

if it's "well utilised" then i'm not sure why we are having this discussion, troll ceptors won't be able to do a thing

We actually don't have much problem with them at all -- the only group that actually tries to RF our stuff uses 500mn omens instead.

We're allowed to be proactive with this sort of thing. This is usually the first step in helping the game, and failing the acceptance of our eternal beatitude, abusing the mechanic so hard that change is forced.

to me it sounds like working as intended - utilised space is hard to capture, unused space can be capured by any passer by with entosis link
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#805 - 2015-08-21 01:39:14 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
Querns wrote:
Warmeister wrote:
Querns wrote:

The implication here that we don't need nor could utilize our current holdings is laughable. Check the ADMs across Imperium space; besides the areas currently undergoing sov transfer in "western" (dotlan projection) Pure Blind, everything is well-utilized.

if it's "well utilised" then i'm not sure why we are having this discussion, troll ceptors won't be able to do a thing

We actually don't have much problem with them at all -- the only group that actually tries to RF our stuff uses 500mn omens instead.

We're allowed to be proactive with this sort of thing. This is usually the first step in helping the game, and failing the acceptance of our eternal beatitude, abusing the mechanic so hard that change is forced.

to me it sounds like working as intended - utilised space is hard to capture, unused space can be capured by any passer by with entosis link

It's more that the current system lacks a way to adequately punish an attacker for their insolence.

Imperium regions are not typical of Eve at large. Our largest defensive structure is our reputation.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#806 - 2015-08-21 02:03:44 UTC
Querns wrote:

It's more that the current system lacks a way to adequately punish an attacker for their insolence.
.

i feel that the punishment of sov owner for failing to defend outweighs that.
attacker owns nothing, defender owns a chunk of space. he shouldn't take his ownership for granted.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#807 - 2015-08-21 02:13:34 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
Querns wrote:

It's more that the current system lacks a way to adequately punish an attacker for their insolence.
.

i feel that the punishment of sov owner for failing to defend outweighs that.
attacker owns nothing, defender owns a chunk of space. he shouldn't take his ownership for granted.

Wanting to affect negative reinforcement in your aggressors is in no way "taking ownership for granted."

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#808 - 2015-08-21 02:23:19 UTC
Querns wrote:
Warmeister wrote:
Querns wrote:

It's more that the current system lacks a way to adequately punish an attacker for their insolence.
.

i feel that the punishment of sov owner for failing to defend outweighs that.
attacker owns nothing, defender owns a chunk of space. he shouldn't take his ownership for granted.

Wanting to affect negative reinforcement in your aggressors is in no way "taking ownership for granted."

you have a perfect avenue for negative reinforcement. use all your titans and supers to hell camp every station they are based in so the only thing they can fly out is an inty. purchase all the inties in those stations and relist for 10 times the price. be inventive, use the vast resources you control. if they move, keep moving after them until they roll over
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#809 - 2015-08-21 02:27:55 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
Querns wrote:
Warmeister wrote:
Querns wrote:

It's more that the current system lacks a way to adequately punish an attacker for their insolence.
.

i feel that the punishment of sov owner for failing to defend outweighs that.
attacker owns nothing, defender owns a chunk of space. he shouldn't take his ownership for granted.

Wanting to affect negative reinforcement in your aggressors is in no way "taking ownership for granted."

you have a perfect avenue for negative reinforcement. use all your titans and supers to hell camp every station they are based in so the only thing they can fly out is an inty. purchase all the inties in those stations and relist for 10 times the price. be inventive, use the vast resources you control. if they move, keep moving after them until they roll over

You're still approaching this conversation with an Imperium-focused bent. Why?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#810 - 2015-08-21 02:28:08 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
Querns wrote:
Warmeister wrote:
Querns wrote:

It's more that the current system lacks a way to adequately punish an attacker for their insolence.
.

i feel that the punishment of sov owner for failing to defend outweighs that.
attacker owns nothing, defender owns a chunk of space. he shouldn't take his ownership for granted.

Wanting to affect negative reinforcement in your aggressors is in no way "taking ownership for granted."

you have a perfect avenue for negative reinforcement. use all your titans and supers to hell camp every station they are based in so the only thing they can fly out is an inty. purchase all the inties in those stations and relist for 10 times the price. be inventive, use the vast resources you control. if they move, keep moving after them until they roll over

good news for all those new small sov owners!

where did they go, i thought they all appeared when magic wands did

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#811 - 2015-08-21 02:31:48 UTC
Querns wrote:

You're still approaching this conversation with an Imperium-focused bent. Why?

because you are pretty much the only ones complaining in this thread
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#812 - 2015-08-21 02:34:10 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
Querns wrote:

You're still approaching this conversation with an Imperium-focused bent. Why?

because you are pretty much the only ones complaining in this thread

We're goons -- we live to post. Posting is what we do.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#813 - 2015-08-21 03:35:13 UTC
Hi, I like to post while watching lasers cycle (magic or mining).

This is really relevant to lasersov, as you can see.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Harry Saq
Of Tears and ISK
ISK.Net
#814 - 2015-08-21 03:44:28 UTC
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Im'a toughy and my friends...er...me and my friends gun hurt you and tell mommy it was yer fawlt

...noted, I will be sure to have my lunch money on hand too...that wasted troll aside, this will prove the point of FozzieSov. You can enjoy your journey across the universe to poop and pee all over other's space, then leave and thump your chest and watch everybody move right back in. Unless you plan on actually moving into those systems, your pomp and circumstance will just be noise. We all know they aren't done iterating on sov and making null livable/defense worthy. Until that happens this is just an exercise in anti-boredom narrative building.

Like I have said in other posts Team 5-0, keep your eye on the ball and keep the concept of making space big, where local literally means the system and constellation you are in, and where it is worth fighting your actual neighbors not for content farming but actual compelling infrastructure and logistics need. The mega coalition concept and meta is obsolete, and only petulantly being held onto by intransigent arcane (and based on the "meta" narrative, hypocritical) thinking by a very unhappy vocal few. Of whom, some I do not even fault because old tales of over-romanticized 4k mega-brawls where ever so minor details like node dropping and soul crushing lag tidi misery marathons are glazed over or just plain left out.

I am no believer in CCPs ability to do things well, timely or remotely correctly, but they atleast nailed the concept and vision part, no matter how it plays out, a successful (or even moderately failed) execution of mechanics and improvements toward that vision would (and should) render organizations larger than alliances completely unnecessary. Some of these loud voices are the very ones stating that coalitions are simply a necessary evil to thwart bad design, yet now still cling and argue for hooks and compromises that draw us back into that stagnant design mentality.

Entosis modules should absolutely be able to be on anything; ceptors fitted with them can just as well capture an uncontested command node event for an attacker OR defender, and absolutely should be used in this way. Decay back to ownership is retrograde thinking, and goes counter to the point of alliances owning and renewing claim to their space as a basic responsibility. Forcing entosis modules on large slow ships is the argument of a disingenuous empire builder wanting to make it harder to hit empty space.

Finally, those crying for killmails on entoasted structures due to some presupposed purity of Eve are also being disingenuous. They want the killmails so they can flaunt what they destroyed for general griefing/aka "narrative" building and anti-boredom nose rubbing incentive. Killmails are a sov trolling incentive vs an actual necessary output for basic sov takeover. So all those scream crying about troll-ceptors and begging for killmails are arguing both sides of the "sov trolling" concept only to a comfortable n+1 end. This is made clear when you put those arguments (Entosis on BC and above + killmails for toasting) together, and reveal the real desire to maintain the n+1 design that they theoretically loath, and only reluctantly do to teach CCP a lesson. It's quite silly, obvious and transparent.

Maybe it isn't disingenuous, sinister or driven by motive....maybe they just don't know any better...whatever the reason, the outcome is the same, and we have been living that outcome for years...however, I believe the tough guy threat against me above, also helps make clear where the priority in mentality lies. That is, I want to gang up on people smaller and feel powerful while flaunting phat killmails vs actually acknowledging compelling game design that allows for more individualized skill and meaningful group (large and small) gameplay...but what the hell do I know, I am just in one of those small alliances that has been actively participating in the new mechanics on a day to day basis...
Snowmann
Arrow Industries
#815 - 2015-08-21 03:44:59 UTC
Querns wrote:
Warmeister wrote:
Querns wrote:

You're still approaching this conversation with an Imperium-focused bent. Why?

because you are pretty much the only ones complaining in this thread

We're goons -- we live to post. Posting is what we do.



We all know its much more than that. Blink
Been there, seen it, heard it, passed on the tee-shirt and lifetime membership.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#816 - 2015-08-21 03:59:33 UTC
Harry Saq wrote:
but what the hell do I know, I am just in one of those small alliances that has been actively participating in the new mechanics on a day to day basis...

So you're a sovtroll?

I can see why you might want to maintain that.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Arrendis
TK Corp
#817 - 2015-08-21 04:05:29 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
Querns wrote:

You're still approaching this conversation with an Imperium-focused bent. Why?

because you are pretty much the only ones complaining in this thread


Other than the members of NCdot, BL, people in PL who aren't you, and others who've actually dealt with sov.

None of your arguments address the fact that 'orbit button in space' is boring as heck, non-engaging gameplay that makes up the other half of the complaints.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#818 - 2015-08-21 04:09:25 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Harry Saq wrote:
but what the hell do I know, I am just in one of those small alliances that has been actively participating in the new mechanics on a day to day basis...

So you're a sovtroll?

I can see why you might want to maintain that.


No, he's ex-LAWN, and he's apparently bitter that Blue-P didn't want to leave Fountain.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#819 - 2015-08-21 04:14:32 UTC
Harry Saq wrote:

...noted, I will be sure to have my lunch money on hand too...that wasted troll aside, this will prove the point of FozzieSov. You can enjoy your journey across the universe to poop and pee all over other's space, then leave and thump your chest and watch everybody move right back in. Unless you plan on actually moving into those systems, your pomp and circumstance will just be noise. We all know they aren't done iterating on sov and making null livable/defense worthy. Until that happens this is just an exercise in anti-boredom narrative building.

I guess ihubs don't have value or utility where you live.

Quote:

The mega coalition concept and meta is obsolete

This is false.

Quote:

I am no believer in CCPs ability to do things well, timely or remotely correctly, but they atleast nailed the concept and vision part, no matter how it plays out, a successful (or even moderately failed) execution of mechanics and improvements toward that vision would (and should) render organizations larger than alliances completely unnecessary.

Why are large organizations unnecessary? Hell, your corp used to be in the Imperium four months ago.

Quote:

Entosis modules should absolutely be able to be on anything; ceptors fitted with them can just as well capture an uncontested command node event for an attacker OR defender, and absolutely should be used in this way. Decay back to ownership is retrograde thinking, and goes counter to the point of alliances owning and renewing claim to their space as a basic responsibility. Forcing entosis modules on large slow ships is the argument of a disingenuous empire builder wanting to make it harder to hit empty space.

Finally, those crying for killmails on entoasted structures due to some presupposed purity of Eve are also being disingenuous. They want the killmails so they can flaunt what they destroyed for general griefing/aka "narrative" building and anti-boredom nose rubbing incentive. Killmails are a sov trolling incentive vs an actual necessary output for basic sov takeover. So all those scream crying about troll-ceptors and begging for killmails are arguing both sides of the "sov trolling" concept only to a comfortable n+1 end. This is made clear when you put those arguments (Entosis on BC and above + killmails for toasting) together, and reveal the real desire to maintain the n+1 design that they theoretically loath, and only reluctantly do to teach CCP a lesson. It's quite silly, obvious and transparent.

Maybe it isn't disingenuous, sinister or driven by motive....maybe they just don't know any better...whatever the reason, the outcome is the same, and we have been living that outcome for years...however, I believe the tough guy threat against me above, also helps make clear where the priority in mentality lies. That is, I want to gang up on people smaller and feel powerful while flaunting phat killmails vs actually acknowledging compelling game design that allows for more individualized skill and meaningful group (large and small) gameplay...but what the hell do I know, I am just in one of those small alliances that has been actively participating in the new mechanics on a day to day basis...

It's pretty clear that your opinions are driven by whatever the Imperium's aren't. I should probably be careful how I use the words "bleach" and "drink" henceforth.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#820 - 2015-08-21 04:17:36 UTC
I will however admit publicly to a great deal of amusement in the fact that Aegis failed to "kill" or even "moderately annoy" the Imperium.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.